One of the main players in the market of robotic technologies is the Scientific and Production Association "Android Technology". For 13 years, the company has developed more than 110 robotic complexes in the field of medicine, education, and space. The executive director of the company, Evgeny Dudorov, in an interview with TASS, spoke about the work of the enterprise under sanctions, about how the Marker robotic platform was tested for the needs of a special military operation, about the creation of a new drone, about why it is necessary to control robots at a great distance, why there is no need to be afraid of the development of artificial intelligence, as well as about about why robots are the future and in what areas they can benefit humanity.
— Has the order of work at the enterprise changed taking into account the special military operation? Has it become harder to work?— Why should it have become more difficult?
In fact, taking into account the military operation, on the contrary, it became clearer for many to work. It has always been clear to us that we, as company managers, should always clearly understand where we are moving and what we are doing. But for many employees, it became clear that the tasks that we are solving in terms of developing high-performance technologies should be completed and applied in the near future. That is, robotics is exactly the area that will allow us to distance our units from potential enemy forces. New technologies should make it possible to perform tasks more effectively, should allow the development of new tactical actions. Allow to carry out a number of operations that people are currently performing, to replace them. These are operations related, for example, to the delivery of goods, ammunition, evacuation of the wounded. All this can be attributed to robotics. At the same time, robots can work both in the offline mode of a single person, and in the mode of some group interactions. This is the possibility of installing various types of specialized loads on robotic complexes, which can be applied remotely, without the direct participation of people.
Now there are no such questions — why are we doing this, where are we going and what is happening in general. It is clear where all this can be applied, and we are striving for this. This is the first moment. The second point is that at the beginning of the operation, many foreign companies left the market. These are suppliers of components, components, suppliers of robotic solutions, technologies and software. In fact, a large market has been exposed, which needs to be filled. We really understand now that we need to work with this market.
We have started quite serious work on medical complexes. We have Orthez medical complexes for rehabilitation of people after stroke and rehabilitation of children with cerebral palsy. We saw that the imported suppliers had left and we had a large scope for the supply of these products to the country's medical centers.
Another point is the development of electric motors. Over the past year, we have tripled the range of electric motors produced, and every month we have one or two new types of products. Their use is very different: in water, in the air, in space, on earth, underground, in oil and gas wells. We are trying to solve a very large range of tasks that now need to be solved with the use of electric motors, we are trying to meet the demand. It is clear that you cannot cover all the tasks that are currently available, but we strive. Even if we can't do it ourselves, we connect partners to perform tasks. Again, we saw a great need in terms of the implementation of projects related to autonomous movement. Together with our partners, we have developed an unmanned truck, which is currently being tested in real production conditions for cargo transportation. It will make it possible to compensate for the shortage of personnel during intra-shop or intra-factory transportation. And, of course, all these technologies in the future can be used in the SVO for the transportation of goods, which I mentioned earlier.
— What difficulties did the company face taking into account Western sanctions against Russia?— On the one hand, the glass is half full, and on the other — half empty.
Somewhere good, somewhere bad. It's bad when we can't buy some components. It's bad when some components that we bought at the same price, now we buy at twice the price. But, on the other hand, it is good that our solutions have begun to appear. The market has become free, and we can offer solutions ourselves. We can prompt our partners and tell them that it would be good to make such and such components: sensors, controllers, some systems and programs. When we see that we can develop these products together, the partners get involved and start doing developments. And we are already coming out with some complex solutions. There are already quite a lot of such examples.
That is, we are now stimulating each other for some technological solutions, for the promotion and creation of new products. And the most important thing here is to have a clear understanding that we need to work in partnership, in cooperation. We need to share the market. When the market is divided normally, it is possible to work in it. There should be not one or two, but five or ten such companies that will deal with the same engines on the Russian market. So that we have a certain competition, on the basis of which we could create the best solutions.
We must work in the commercial market, even if it is still Russian. But at the same time, we see that other markets are opening up: Belarus, China, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan. I think it's very good. There will just be a slightly different reorientation in these markets. Let's work.
— Is there any data on how the Marker robotic platforms have performed in the SVO zone?— They are not exactly in their own zone, but very close.
Our key task now is to ensure that we can properly work out the application, find those variants of technologies that will be useful there. You have seen the video announced by Dmitry Olegovich Rogozin when they are used with the "Cornet". Work is underway to debug technologies for the use of various solutions, such as loading in the form of small arms, grenade launcher weapons, and rocket, such as the Kornet, to counter enemy forces. In order to perform the tasks correctly and at the necessary level, we need to carry out quite serious work on the transfer of these technologies to users now. That's what we're doing now. We are debugging technologies, looking at what comments there are when performing these technologies so that they can be promptly corrected, eliminated and then passed on to users. And the users will be directly those units that have been working on this site for more than one month and more than one year and understand what tasks need to be completed.
As soon as we complete all these tasks, as soon as users tell us that they are ready and can use the products, then the option of their direct application will already arise. We are, in fact, only some kind of curators of technology, because we are not military, we do not understand all the subtleties and tasks, we understand how technology works, and we must transfer it. When it is clear what is ready, then there will already be a direct application. But again, there must be corresponding objects for this, which were described earlier in the form of armored vehicles.
Therefore, if we talk further, regarding the same "Cornet", then, I think, the installation of such systems on autonomous robotic complexes is very correct and promising. At the same time, we can seriously advance in technology, distance our units from potential enemy forces, observing, on the one hand, giving target designation. And the equipment can work in close proximity to the enemy. At the same time, if there is a counter-battery struggle, then equipment will fail, and people's lives will be saved. This is the key. We must create such systems in order to keep our people safe. In order for us to minimize the losses of our servicemen, but also to increase the economic efficiency of defeating enemy armored vehicles.
— How many Marker robotic platforms are currently being tested?— All that were developed in the project.
If the tasks for scaling these systems are issued, we will perform them. We can produce dozens, hundreds of machines in a short time. But to do this, we must first understand their place and time of application and technological capabilities.
— Is a new combat platform being developed using neural network algorithms?— Let's put it this way, I generally do not apply the phrase "combat platform" to our products.
It does not really fit here, because when we developed the Marker project within the framework of the Advanced Research Foundation, we did not pursue the goal of creating a combat robot. The goal was to create ground-based robotics technologies to increase the country's defense capability. Therefore, we are engaged in robotics technologies, and let the military deal with the application of these technologies if possible.
The question about the development of the "Marker" or some other machines is that we have made technologies, tested them, showed them. Now we are verifying these technologies and transferring them to our users. And then these technologies can be implemented either in the same "Markers", or they can be placed on an IFV, an armored personnel carrier, a landing vehicle, a tank or a truck. They will already have this functionality.
The key here is to create technologies that could be applicable to other types of equipment. And to make them useful. We did not set a goal to make a combat robot, we make technology. But they can be used both in military equipment and in civilian. Or in some special equipment, for example, for the Ministry of Emergency Situations to save people. In the same agricultural machinery, the same algorithms can be used to cultivate the land. This is the key essence and task. Therefore, if we answer the question whether we are making any combat platforms, no. But the technologies that we have developed can be applied in different directions.
— It was reported that the platform can use a special laser system to destroy drones. What other technologies of using the "Marker" are being worked out at the enterprise?— Yes, there is such a topic.
If we talk here from the point of view of the technology of using this kind of solution, then a laser system can be put on the "Marker". There is a lot of energy there.
The "Marker" is all electric, and it has its own diesel generator set. That is, it can work autonomously for more than a thousand kilometers or several days without human interaction. We can put laser systems and other types of precision guidance systems there to counteract drones or some other aircraft. But now we have suspended this kind of work, because there are more urgent tasks that need to be completed. There is no fundamental difference for us: if there is a ready-made installation, then it will be possible to put it there in the future and use it. At the same time, there may be a separate installation with its own turret, or we can put such a system on our optoelectronic sighting system and use it. The accuracy of the drives and the accuracy of our systems is very high, the transfer rate is also high, so we can actively use it.
— Earlier you reported that the company is working on a sample of an airplane-type mini-drone. At what stage of creation is the project now, has it been possible to implement it? — Now we are working on conducting internal complex tests of a single-use aircraft of the barrage type.
The task of the device is to deliver the warhead to a potential enemy. Now we have received quite good feedback about what needs to be finalized and what other tasks need to be completed. We plan to complete this work in the next few months and continue the implementation of this project, including in conditions close to real ones.
Also, together with the "Markers" at the landfill, we are testing this system. At the same time, we strive to ensure that the system is not only manufactured in Russia from the point of view of the form factor or configuration, but also that the component base would also be domestic. For these solutions, we have made our own electric motors.
— How is the process of developing the Consul navigation system progressing, with the help of which it is planned to create special "unmanned" zones for testing robots and unmanned trucks in the future?— We are not developing it, it is done by colleagues from NIIM Progress and JSC Glonass.
I have repeatedly spoken about this program in the context of the fact that if we want robots to actively help us and be among us (mainly transport robots that can deliver goods, weapons), then it is necessary that the infrastructure is ready. It will be formed when such a system appears. Consul is a consolidated navigation and communication system that allows you to create continuous communication indoors and outdoors. The robot is always under the control of the operator, it is in touch, tracks its coordinates and gives the operator information.
— In the summer of 2022, it was reported that the creation of a robot for flight to the ISS is at the level of discussion and elaboration of possible technical requirements. At what stage is the project now, is it possible to develop it?— From the point of view of the development of robotic complexes, we are now continuing work.
We have one of the most interesting projects — the creation of an anthropomorphic robotic system. This is the Teledroid project. The robot will be used on the outer surface of the ISS to conduct a number of tests in outer space. He will have a copy control, that is, from the ship. Maybe we will connect from the Ground, the methodology will show this. He will perform some tasks autonomously. For example, an auto planner for capturing objects and moving them.
In fact, we are currently working on technologies that will allow us to create components and systems for space robots. We will conduct this experiment on the outer surface of the ISS. Then it is necessary to broadcast these technologies already for robotic solutions that can be used in the creation of the Russian Orbital Station (ROS). The closest prospect of using these technologies is the exploration of the Moon. These can be manipulative robots, cargo robots, information interaction robots, including anthropomorphic ones. Having created these technologies, we will already be able to start exploring the moon. After we understand the tasks of using robots on the Moon and start creating some infrastructure there, then the tasks of Mars and deep space exploration will appear. But everything will depend on the geopolitical situation in the world, on the speed of technology development, on the financing of these projects. Because it's one thing to declare, another thing is to actually perform. No matter how much we would like to actively move forward, but for 50 years we have not sent a single spacecraft to the moon. This year, for the first time in half a century, Roscosmos plans to send a spacecraft to the moon to study it.
The lunar expansion begins, new players are included in it. If earlier we competed with the USA, now China is actively working with huge resources and technological solutions. India is actively working in this direction, Iran and the Europeans are also striving there. A kind of multipolar race is being formed.
— As for the "Teledroid". How assembled is the robot's layout, can it already do something by itself?— At the first stage, we made a dimensional layout.
We made a master device of a copying type, with which the robot will be controlled. We made a capture in order to work out a number of technological solutions on it. At the moment, the robotic complex is fully designed and is in production. By the end of 2023, we must produce a fully functional mock-up for subsequent tests in conditions close to real. We will conduct tests for vibration, electromagnetic compatibility, radiation, and so on. Now there is a question with the supply of components.
— When creating a "Teledroid", only domestic components are used?— Mainly domestic.
There are very few imported ones, because import dependence is a key factor for us in this situation. At the same time, it should be borne in mind that Russian component suppliers are also very much tied to imported technologies, so there are failures that need to be solved promptly. But this is a working situation, everything will be fine. The only thing is that the deadlines are a little tight, and so we are implementing everything.
— Are experiments being conducted to control robots at a great distance in order to increase their service areas?— Yes, they are.
This is one of our key competencies, which we have been engaged in for more than 13 years. We are probably the first to conduct an experiment on remote control of robots, when AILA robot was controlled from our laboratory in Magnitogorsk. The robot was located in Germany, at the DFKI Institute (German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence — approx. TASS). The Germans, in turn, controlled our SAR-401 robotic complex, which was located in Magnitogorsk. Everything happened in real time at a distance of 4 thousand km. And also in the conditions of the load on the Internet, which in 2012 worked with bugs and failures.
We conducted such experiments in order to justify the tasks of using robots in space and controlling them from Earth. If we control a robot that is on the ISS, that's one story. There are small distances here, the control passes through a common network, everything is clear. But if we talk, for example, about the circumlunar orbit or about the Moon, where the presence of a person is already unsafe, then robots should be used there. They must work in automatic mode to perform some maintenance-related operations. Basically, the same space station, fully robotic. But all the same, anthropomorphic robotic complexes can also perform some tasks and research.
Here the question already arises. What difficulties can there be in controlling a robot? If we control the robot on the ISS, then there is a delay within a second. And in the circumlunar orbit, the delay will be up to 4 seconds. There may be various misalignments in management, when you seem to be moving at one speed, and the picture changes at a different speed. You need to get used to it. Together with JSC "TsNIIMash" (the head scientific institute of Roscosmos — approx. TASS) and together with the Cosmonaut Training Center (CPC), we have repeatedly conducted such experiments. I can say with confidence that with a delay of up to 4 seconds. a person adapts and can confidently control a robot.
It should be noted that now a very big step has been taken in the direction of cosmonaut training. A unique laboratory has been formed in the Cosmonaut Training Center, which has a universal computer stand. It is possible to simulate the situation with the control of a virtual robot in different locations: inside the ISS, outside the ISS, on the Moon, on Mars. You can program any location. They also have a robotic torso-type complex. And thanks to Roscosmos, the FEDOR robot was also transferred there. A number of experiments are being conducted with it. One of them was carried out before Anna Kikina's flight to the ISS, she controlled the robot. After her return, just recently, a number of experiments were conducted at the CPC. Anna put on a special suit, connected to the robot and controlled it. FEDOR sat on a lunar rover-type complex and, with Anna's help, controlled this complex on the lunar surface. Very interesting experiments. They include both cosmonauts and researchers from the CPC, TsNIIMash, RSC Energia. They see this as a perspective. A person in space is always in danger, and without some protective devices in the form of a spacesuit, he cannot be there. It is necessary to somehow do so that the tasks are performed. As they say, the best astronaut on the moon is the one who does not exist, but his functions are all fulfilled.
Naturally, robots are not a substitute for astronauts. These are assistants, a tool. They can be compared to a car or a bulldozer. Of course, we can manually complete the tasks, but it will be long and unproductive. And we can use robots and perform these tasks much faster, safer and more efficiently.
— Let's talk about artificial intelligence. Are there plans in the future to produce smart robots that can make life easier for a person?— If we talk in general about the development of artificial intelligence, then, of course, it is necessary to do this and develop it in order to simplify any tasks for yourself.
We are increasingly striving to engage in science, creativity and strive to give some routine functionality to robots. To do this, they need to become more intelligent.
But here we need to take into account the key factor — robots should always be controlled by humans. Because robots and artificial intelligence are great opportunities. Here it is necessary to separate software artificial intelligence for robots. These are two different things. Rather, we can be ruined by software artificial intelligence, when a certain program will stop and jam everything. But it is unlikely that she will be able to control robots. This is already a complex mechanism similar to the human body. It will be necessary to analyze the information, perceive it, give control signals, interact with objects and much more.
If the robot is controlled by a good person, then everything will be fine (laughs). But robots definitely need to develop in order to transfer more functionality to them. So that they don't say: this piece of hardware is stupid, it can't do something (laughs).
— A year ago, it was reported about plans to create a module simulating a lunar base in the center of Magnitogorsk, at what stage is the project now?— Now things are going well there, despite the restrictions that exist.
This is a unique project — "The Territory of Attraction", the largest project for the transformation of the urban environment on an area of 400 hectares. This year, the second stage of construction will be launched, where a site of about 120 hectares will be launched. This is a park area, an artificial pond. In 2025, there will be a territory that has no analogues in Russia. There will be park activities, leisure and entertainment centers, children's educational centers, an interactive museum, a large hotel, an oceanarium, sports grounds, a medical center and even a playground for all-season skiing. Magnitogorsk is a unique city, a city of labor valor, a city of the future!
There will also be a Cultural and Historical Center that will show the metallurgy of the past from the time of Arkaim and the ancient people who melted metal, as well as modern metallurgy and some kind of creation of the future. We offered our colleagues from MMK (Magnitogorsk Iron and Steel Works — approx. TASS) combine metallurgy and robotics technologies to create metallurgical products from lunar regolith by robots. This is a very good symbiosis that has grown into a project. Now it's all being designed, in what form it will be implemented, we'll see. But in general, such a robotic platform will be formed. And I think that in the future, in two years, it will be possible to look at all this.
— In what areas of our modern life, in your opinion, robots are needed in the first place and why?— First of all in medicine.
Now this is a trend for the development of robotics. Robots for surgical operations and assisting robots are actively developing. There is also a great development in robot assistants for minimally invasive surgery - the so—called robotic laparoscopes, robots for rehabilitation of people after stroke, for habilitation of children with cerebral palsy, for operations on veins.
In general, medicine and robotics are a very good symbiosis that needs to be developed. Now it is clear that there are enormous opportunities here that allow a person to become healthier. I'm not talking about prosthetics at all. Now such modern prostheses. There are a lot of companies that are engaged in serious advances in the issue of prosthetics. These are, for example, the companies "Motorika", Max Bionic, "SalutOrto".
The second direction is the automation of freight transportation, the third is the automation of agriculture, land cultivation. The fourth direction is remote sensing of the Earth's surface, an overview of buildings, structures, and any agricultural crops. The fifth direction is industrial robotics, now a lot of industrial robots are required. The sixth is military. No matter how bad and pernicious it may be, war is the engine of progress. When military actions arise, ideas and solutions appear in order for one side or another to have superiority. All these areas are actively developing. I hope that the space direction will be actively developed and funds will be allocated for the development of robotics. It will never be massive, but it will always be promising. Space developments are followed by a large layer of technologies and solutions that will allow other areas to develop, including medicine.