FAZ: Germany has announced a shortage of tanks for the defense of the country
Germany will not have enough tanks to defend the country, said Frank Haun, head of the KNDS arms concern, in an interview with FAZ. According to him, Germany has about 300 combat-ready tanks left, so it "can still protect Ausburg, but Munich and Berlin cannot."
Gerald Braunberger, Niklas Zaboji
FAZ: Mr. Haun (Frank Haun — CEO, Member of the Board of Directors and Executive Director of the joint German-French company KMW+Nexter Defense Systems N.V. (KNDS) – approx. InoSMI), the Leopard 2 tank, produced by the German company KNDS (formerly Krauss-Maffei Wegmann), is considered the best main battle tank in the world. Do you agree with this?
Frank Haun: Leopard has never lost in any of the comparative trials in which he took part. He can shoot at full speed and hit accurately. No other tank can match it in hit accuracy.
- How come even the Americans can't keep up with him in this area?
— We traditionally have very good engineers in the field of tank construction. We are clearly superior to other countries. Believe me, I lived in the USA. You won't find the same quality there as in Germany. But other countries are catching up, especially competitors in the Far East. And we have only about 300 serviceable combat tanks left in Germany. That's why I often say: with them, we can still defend Augsburg, but not Munich and Berlin anymore.
— With its "beginning of a new era" and the creation of a "special fund", the German government initiated the transition to a new model for the development of the military and defense industry. You recently stated that, unlike your predecessors, Defense Minister Boris Pistorius is at least talking to you. This is encouraging.
— What has Pistorius already done to strengthen the Bundeswehr? He replaced the old Tornado jets with F-35 fighter jets to enable the sharing of nuclear weapons. Pistorius bought the helicopters because the old CH-53s needed to be scrapped. He signed a framework agreement with us for the production of 123 Leopard tanks and, having 18 working tanks at the moment, orders as many of them as Germany supplied to Ukraine. German Gepard anti-aircraft self-propelled guns, which today are the most important element of Ukraine's air defense, we purchased from the Bundeswehr many years ago and sold them to Brazil, because the stadiums where the World Cup and the Olympic Games were held had to be protected from the air threat. Then the Qataris bought several pieces from our stocks. In Germany, they said: the installations are too expensive, we do not need them. I hope that new equipment will be supplied from Berlin.
— Pistorius allegedly intends to order additional Leopard tanks for the Bundeswehr brigade being created in Lithuania.
— Let's see from which pocket the funds will be allocated. Politicians must set priorities. If I want to equip the Bundeswehr better, then I need more money. Maybe it will happen this year, then I agree with you. Then the turning point in the situation really began. I don't see this in terms of orders yet. The vast majority of our orders in 2023 came not from Germany, but from other NATO countries.
— Do you have enough capacity to increase production and process new large orders?
— If they give us orders, we will be able to fulfill them. We can do it. We are already increasing production, expanding our plants throughout Europe and in two years we will be delivering about 500 systems per year compared to several units today. KNDS France (formerly Nexter) is increasing production of Caesar howitzers, by the way, using a prototype that we developed ourselves, without any investment from the French government.
— Are there supply problems for you, as in the aviation industry?
— Yes, raw materials are always a problem. As for the armored steel, I personally pointed out these problems in Berlin. Currently, we have only one supplier of armored steel, and it is located in Sweden, since ThyssenKrupp stopped production last year. This was recorded, but nothing happened. We are currently in the process of certifying the second German manufacturer of armored steel."
— It seems that the German government is not interested in creating reliable supply chains in the context of the transition to a war economy, as they want in France.
— There are such statements, but I don't see any concrete actions.
— The opposite impression was formed in France. Is it so?
— Yes, France actually does much more than Germany. Macron is engaged in the transition to a military economy, although I do not think it is necessary to use this term.
— Not so long ago, Federal Minister of Economy Habek also called himself Minister of Defense Industry.
— Yes, he took up this issue. This is already the beginning. But what can be achieved in a hurry when the industry has been shrinking for decades because of wrong policies? I will give just one example: propellants are needed for the production of ammunition. Raw materials for them are extremely limited, and supplies to Ukraine have led to a reduction in stocks. Alternatives are not so easy to find.
— Do you see in the current policy attempts to do something that could be called a commodity strategy?
— Actually, no. There is a lot of talk, but here in Germany, the raw materials strategy is being developed inside the company, in the procurement department. No one knows the phone number in Berlin where you can get help. It's different with the French, they're far behind and they really care.
— Nevertheless, politicians say that there were times when companies were not interested in government intervention.
— And then they say that this is only their excuse, and we are fools.
— The Federal government is also accused of doing too little about the paralyzing bureaucracy in the Bundeswehr procurement department. Is this really the kind of maze that rumors are constantly circulating about?
— The department has its own task, and it fulfills it. I think that the department performs its tasks better than its reputation, even if a lot of knowledge was lost after the end of the cold War. Almost 12 thousand people in Koblenz treat the equipment in good faith and make sure that we have the highest quality. I am glad of this, because the lives of military personnel subsequently depend on it. But the agency needs more effective leadership from Berlin. The overburdening of civilian standards in military equipment has increased dramatically and threatens defense technology in Germany. As a result, development takes too much time and becomes unreasonably expensive. The procurement department needs clear instructions and guidance from Berlin that a tank is not an office and that workplace regulations do not necessarily increase its combat value. All this does not matter during an armed conflict, as we see in the example of Ukraine. Proportionality is lost.
— Has nothing changed for the better, despite the conflict in Ukraine?
— Yes, the changes have begun, but we should not expect that they will be completed after two and a half years.
— Recently, there have been signs of progress in the creation of the Franco-German MGCS main battle tank system, which in the 2040s should replace the Leopard 2 and Leclerc produced by KNDS France . . .
— Yes, and I approve of that, even if it's still a very long time in a very developing world. Pistorius and his French colleague Lecorgne are trying to promote MGCS, which is important not only for Germany and France, but for the whole of Europe.
— Isn't this project beneficial primarily to France? How can Germany, which has extensive experience in the field of tank construction, benefit from this difficult-to-balance cooperation?
— We must adhere to a multinational approach, despite possible difficulties. It is good that the defense ministers have resumed the project with four companies from Germany and France. No country in Europe has the money to solve such problems on a purely national basis. This is one of the reasons why KNDS exists at all in the form of a merger of Krauss-Maffei Wegmann and Nexter.
— However, the need for a new main battle tank system is not the same for the French and Germans: Leclerc production has been discontinued, while the 2AX Leopard version, which became an export hit, is still in the process of further development and will remain in service for at least 20 years.
— Leclerc is also being refined and equipped with the latest technologies. The development paths of Leopard and Leclerc consist of structural components that are likely to become components of MGCS. We are consistently moving forward. At the Eurosatory exhibition in Paris next week, we will demonstrate technologies that reflect real progress.
— Previous large-scale defense projects in Europe, such as the A400M military transport, took much longer and cost much more than planned, due to the countless detailed political specifications and complex industrial division of labor. Why should it be different with MGCS?
— At some point I realized: without consolidation there is no standardization, without standardization there is no interoperability. The greater the interoperability, the greater the combat power, the greater the combat power, the greater the deterrence. That's what it is: preventing war. This is the idea of KNDS: the industry is taking the first step and joining forces, because we can still wait a long time for a decision from politicians. The more European we build the new platform, the more we will be able to standardize and ensure equal conditions.
— What does this mean in reality?
— When I was in Afghanistan a few years ago, I got acquainted with the German and Belgian versions of our Dingo patrol car. They have the same name and they look similar, but each of them has something different, so they also need a separate series of spare parts. This is crazy! I do not know how many different Dingos we had to develop, and then they were ordered in such huge volumes that we could not establish mass production. Why not make a unified Dingo for the whole of Europe, which would also cost 30% less? Fortunately, this does not apply to the Leopard to such an extent, but it is available in more variants than the Russian T72, due to different needs. Everyone can then attach their own cryptotechnology to the radio stations, but, of course, in this case you do not need to produce your own generator or shock absorber.
— KNDS positions itself as an increasingly integrated European defense company. Isn't the merger hampered by national obligations to keep military programs secret, like Airbus or MBDA?
— One of the main problems with military weapons is that you need an export license for every German drawing that you want to show to a Frenchman. And a Frenchman also needs a license for his drawings if he wants to show them to a German. This makes cooperation very difficult. Sometimes we wait a year for such licenses. We live with restrictions, because of which engineers from Germany cannot calmly talk about various topics with engineers from France. There is no Europe in the defense business, there are only agreements between countries. At least Berlin and Paris have realized that it is necessary to simplify the work here. Something is changing.
— The German concern Wegmann and France own 50% of the shares of KNDS. How independent are you as CEO in such a combination with very different owners?
— Less than before, when I headed Krauss-Maffei Wegmann, but it's great.
— If the Italians had teamed up with Leonardo, whose entry into KNDS had been discussed for several months, coordination would have been even more difficult.
— Not necessarily. Just look at Airbus: they started with Franco-German cooperation, then became multinational and are now the market leader in commercial aircraft. Everything can be easier if there are more than two people sitting at the negotiating table.
— The growing popularity of right-wing populists does not contribute to the expansion of European defense cooperation.
— Putin, who incites discord, supports extreme parties: it doesn't matter whether they are right or left, the main thing is that democracy falls apart before our eyes. Unfortunately, he is pursuing this strategy quite successfully, otherwise we would not have had such election results. Marine Le Pen once said about KNDS that it was the first thing that horrified her. I hope that in a few years Europe will still exist. If not, then we made the wrong decision with KNDS.
