More recently, FPV drones, which were "toys", have turned into powerful weapons and one of the factors determining the nature of hostilities in the framework of a special military operation in Ukraine on the front line of the confrontation. This technology, which is cheap compared to conventional weapons, poses a great danger to both military personnel and equipment on the battlefield.
Dmitry Kuzyakin, CEO of the Center for Integrated Unmanned Solutions (CCDB), a developer of combat FPV drones, told RIA Novosti correspondent Ivan Suraev in an interview about the Joker UAV line, the Lodyr drone operator protection system, the possibilities of using FPV in air defense and the fight against Ukrainian unmanned boats, as well as how how the company's drones forced a company of the Armed Forces to surrender.
— Dmitry Vasilyevich, how long has your company been in existence, what main results have the Central Bank managed to achieve over the years?
— The company has been operating as an initiative group for more than three years. We all came to the Central Bank from different industries. For example, I am a former banker, vice president of VTB, my department was responsible for Big Data and customer service (CRM) at the bank. By the way, this experience helps a lot in the ability to organize the work of highly qualified specialists in tasks with implicit goals, on a landscape with a high level of uncertainty.
Three years ago and now we are united by the fact that we are all interested in third-wave drone technology. The third wave, the third league, is not only FPV, but in general all drones, which are essentially high–tech "toys". For example, we assembled foam airplanes that fly 30 kilometers in automatic mode back in 2018.
What is this third wave? In general, drones are more than 100 years old: Nikola Tesla also launched radio-controlled ships, demonstrating full-fledged direct control systems. Or another example, V-2 ballistic missiles or V-1 cruise missiles were full-fledged UAVs. However, the "explosion" in the drone industry has only occurred in the last 10-15 years.
The first wave is drones, which require technologies and resources of entire countries and decades of development, these include intercontinental ballistic missiles, satellite groupings or unmanned underwater vehicles with high autonomy. The second league is devices and technologies that require the involvement of corporations and individual large enterprises. This league includes, for example, Russian Orions, Turkish Bayraktar, American Reapers, automatic air defense systems, as well as a variety of medium-range naval drones. Their development takes not decades, but years, and they can be created by large corporations of the military-industrial complex.
Finally, the third wave, which was not heard in the media until recently, is also called the toy league. The development of third-league products requires weeks or months and the resources of the entire group of people or even one bored engineer. It so happened that the third league developed for a long time and separately, without using the technologies of the first two leagues. The creation of third league technologies requires much less resources, and the effectiveness of the products, as shown by the fighting, turned out to be unexpectedly high. The result of the work of the third league were such products and related technologies as, for example, FPV drones, reconnaissance aircraft, new means of communication and control, unmanned ships of all types, crawling drones and so-called smart mines.
Several factors contributed to the surge in the industry: firstly, the sharp reduction in the cost of the element base - each of us has a smartphone, the computing power of which is higher than all the computing power of the Soviet Union at the beginning of the 1970s. And any drone today is a full–fledged computer, it has a processor, an operating system, RAM, and at the same time its price is measured in tens of thousands of rubles. Secondly, digitalization contributed to this. If earlier any drone was an engineering miracle, now we just take the motors, the necessary sensors, radio modules and actuators, connect them to the on-board computer and, in fact, the UAV is ready. However, with this scheme, all the main work falls on the software. We have simplified the physical assembly, but we have greatly complicated the software part. Therefore, the third is the explosive growth of software. A movement among programmers called Open Source appeared at the right time. Today, many operating systems are created, as they say, by the whole world. Drones are no exception here, very complex software for them is publicly available, anyone can download it and upload it to their UAV. Fourth, it is the emergence of new powerful and at the same time compact energy sources – lithium polymer batteries.
We decided to deal with drones of the third league, because it is difficult, interesting and gives a lot of unattainable opportunities until recently. You know that the FPV drone's altitude record is 12 kilometers, and school projects of autonomous back-up systems have almost worldwide autonomy. At that time we worked exclusively at our own expense. As a result, everything came to an order to begin adapting FPV drones for military use. We received it as part of the Army-2021 exhibition. In the same year, we began training instructors in the combat use of FPV for the Ministry of Defense.
The main argument against it was the unreliability of control over the radio channel, they say, any electronic warfare system can drown it out. However, initially, FPV drones and similar technologies were developed by civilians for civilian needs. This has severely limited the possibilities for choosing radio frequencies and transmission capacities. These products could only work in the so-called junk radio frequency bands. For example, 2.4GHz is the range of a microwave oven and Wi-Fi routers. Long-term evolution in conditions of notoriously dirty air at low transmission capacities forced the third league to develop stable radio protocols for any noise, including artificial noise.
When these "toys" burst from the hobby sphere to the front, very rare electronic warfare systems could effectively cope with them. It's like keeping a few rats in a box for weeks, and then releasing the survivor. That's the third league as well.
— Have FPV drones really become, as they say now, a game-changing weapon that has rendered tanks and other traditional military equipment useless?
— Such conversations are conducted all the time in the world. For example, during the First World War, aviation took off on the battlefield for the first time. It turned out to be so effective that the question was seriously raised: "do we need artillery now?" As a result, both aviation and artillery are used on the battlefield. Further, in 1945, after the Battle of Konigsberg (Kaliningrad), where faust cartridges were first used, they were immediately called Wunderwaffe and declared that "the time of tanks has passed." Today, tanks and hand-held anti-tank grenade launchers are used at the front.
Because of the novelty of FPV drones and similar solutions, everyone is talking about them, but when everything settles down, they will take their place in the variety of elements of warfare. Very rarely, parts of military equipment go away completely, except for cavalry, but small arms have been successfully used since the XIV century and still.
— Which structures are your customers today?
— Today we are working with units that are directly on the line of combat contact and constantly keep in touch with them.
Also, the 9th brigade of the People's Militia of the DPR trained specialist instructors in the combat use of FPV, and then opened a school for FPV drone pilots.
Today we are helping the governors of various regions of Russia to open such schools at home.
— Tell us about your line of FPV drones "Joker", what is the duration of their flight and payload, how is this family of drones developing today?
The Joker drone
Image source: © Photo : CCBR
— Initially, drones, which we at the Central Research and Development Center simply call "end devices", were not our priority area of work, we were more focused on training FPV combat crews. However, due to the growing needs of the front, UAVs themselves began to be made.
The latest Joker model to date, the Joker—10, carries 5 kilograms of payload at a speed of about 100 kilometers per hour, without weight it accelerates to 200 kilometers per hour. The flight range depends on the ground equipment.
Our drone is equipped with two vital devices. The first is a hibernator, which allows you to physically turn on and off the drone from a distance. That is, it is not easy to turn on and off the motors, but to de-energize the device completely. In fact, remotely pull out the battery from the drone. First of all, this is necessary for the safety of the "graduating engineer" of the FPV calculation. Without fear of being detected by the enemy's electronic reconnaissance with the drone turned on, go to the launch position and calmly install the drones turned off before the time and leave. Then, when it's time to use it, the pilot remotely turns it on. By that time, our fighters will not be near the drone. The drone can wait up to one week for launch in winter and up to a month in summer. Rain may drip on him, snow may fall – nothing will happen to him, and he will wait for the command to start. It is passive, there is practically no radio emission from it, and therefore it is extremely difficult to detect it during hibernation. To guarantee the Joker such all-weather characteristics, before handing over each product to the customer, we test it in flight by spilling it from a high-pressure washer. This also allows you to make sure that in bad weather its electronics will not "stand up" and the drone will not fall. The hibernator also allows you to take a place for an attack in advance, go into hibernation and wait for the target. The drone can fly to the waiting area by itself and turn off on its own. We cannot always know exactly when the enemy will appear. With a hibernator, it's easier to wait for it to appear.
The second device that stands on the "Joker" is the electric detonator driver. Since drones are originally civilian devices, there is no provision for an ED attachment point on them. Together with the authorized bodies, we have developed a detonator driver that serves the payload as a peripheral device of the flight controller. This allows you to set all imaginable degrees of protection and set algorithms for non-extraction. To date, the enemy has not yet got any of our drones, because the driver is guaranteed to work either on a timer, or on impact, or at the command of the pilot. It will also work if you try to destroy it or cut the wires.
We conduct all developments on an initiative basis at our own expense under the full control of our comrades in the authorized bodies.
The Joker drone
Image source: © Photo : CCBR
— What was the most important target that the Joker hit on the battlefield?
— For us, the most important goal was achieved at the very beginning of its implementation, in early March 2022. Probably, no one will be able to repeat this record. It was not a Bradley, not a Humvee, or even a Leopard-2, but 60 AFU soldiers who were forced to surrender after seeing firsthand what the massive use of FPV drones means.
This was the most important goal for me and the highest result of all time: the effectiveness of using the FPV device at the moment turned out to be so high that the enemy realized that further resistance was useless.
— That is, one small drone captured an entire company of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Why?
— Then the Ukrainian military stood in the classic line of defense, expecting a conventional war: machine-gun nests, anti-tank calculations, RPGs. Our fighters, whom we trained and provided with equipment, instead of starting to "play by the rules", did not come to the fight at all, but launched FPV calculations, which immediately unwound the second line of Ukrainian defense. The Ukrainian soldiers on the front line realized that resistance was simply pointless. Their mass surrender is the main trophy in the work of our Center.
We do not stop there and are looking for new ways to use our drones. As you can see, the third league is giving everyone a light today. For example, airplane-type drones are often made of styrofoam and are simply not visible on radar. This greatly complicates the interception of such products by conventional air defense systems. Electronic warfare is also ineffective due to the lack of vulnerable radio channels in such devices.
In addition, shooting down relatively small copters and aircraft with air defense systems is unprofitable from an economic point of view. One missile of a modern air defense system costs like a full-fledged private house, and one drone can cost less than a bicycle. In this regard, we have come up with and implemented a new scenario for the use of FPV drones and included a new role in the arsenal - FPV air defense and protection of the near air perimeter. We will not detect enemy UAVs before all of them, but we are training specialists who can shoot down such devices and provide them with the necessary equipment. We do not offer a "magic" automatic sky protection system, we have created tools for the physical destruction of enemy drones in the air. We will not completely eliminate the problem, but we make it possible to protect infrastructure facilities on our own.
The Joker drone
Image source: © Photo : CCBR
Now this is a full-fledged working project of FPV-air defense: pipes from false thermal targets of aircraft are attached to the drone, which instead of a high-temperature mass are filled with explosives and striking elements. On command from the pilot's console, such a projectile is fired without recoil, forms a cloud of fragments and knocks down enemy drones. Up to six such tubes can be installed on the Joker-10, during the tests we made sure that when fired, the drone itself does not fall apart, does not change the direction of flight, this is a reusable story.
A shot is not the only way to shoot down an enemy drone. The most effective method of destroying aerial targets today remains a conventional ram. Thus, we get a fairly effective "bum air defense" to protect our refineries, civilian and military facilities.
FPV-air defense was tested at the training ground of our comrades and partners in the project — GkNIPAS, during which aircraft-type drones were shot down. We have trained several specialists from interested agencies in the capabilities of intercepting aerial targets.
— In addition to the development of drones, the CCBI specializes in the preparation of FPV calculations, today many companies offer the same services. How would you rate the domestic UAV operator training school, given that this industry was born very recently?
— Today, the issue of pilot training has been somewhat profaned. For some reason, many people had the idea that the preparation of a combat FPV calculation is easy, and two weeks are enough for this. However, this is not the case.
A good sniper is taught for at least six months. You can spend three months on this, but in three months you will get a sniper who will reach the line of contact (LBS) and, most likely, will die there. FPV is technically a much more complex topic. The complexity of training operators and pilots of such drones is comparable to the training of an army aviation pilot – Ka-52 helicopters and Su-25 attack aircraft.
Initially, we started from three months to train an FPV pilot. And this is, in fact, the minimum time for such a task. Then, we were forced to reduce these terms to one month, but if our student insists on three months of study, then we do not refuse him. The problem here is that fighters from the front very often simply do not have three months to go to the "mainland" and study there. Therefore, we are preparing not only the FPV calculation itself, but we are trying to immediately prepare an FPV instructor who could come to the location of his unit and start preparing FPV calculations there. We have developed several training programs and created methodological manuals at our own expense.
The CCBI logo
Image source: © Photo : CCBR
Our basic training program consists of theoretical training, simulator practice and, finally, the study of combat application scenarios. Today, most applications are reduced to only one scenario – the so-called mortar with eyes: direct the kamikaze drone away and apply it more precisely. So, in fact, there are more than 20 scenarios for the combat use of FPV devices! Among them, for example: protection of the state border, urban combat and operations inside buildings, interception of naval and aerial drones, mining and work from heavy equipment, including tanks.
Just teach an FPV pilot to fly and send him to the LBS, this approach, frankly, causes consternation. This leads to what we often see on the web: our pilot has a helmet on his head, and video reception antennas are placed on it. This is very good when the drone is not far away, but when it flies 1-2 kilometers and beyond, the operator stands up to his full height, looking for a radio signal with his helmet, lifting the control panel up. So he becomes an excellent target for the enemy.
During the entire period of its operation, the CCDB had no losses among instructors or directly calculation specialists during application. Moreover, it is no longer a secret that the enemy is purposefully hunting for Russian FPV calculations, because such calculations are the most valuable thing in an unmanned system. The equipment can be restored, but the experience of the guys and the time spent on their training are not.
To secure our combat FPV calculations, we created the "Quitter" system. This is a false drone operator who forms a full-fledged "picture" of the application of the FPV device on the radio: there is a fake remote control, a video transmission radio channel module and a remote shutdown tool so that the quitter does not work all the time, but only when we need it.
Modern electronic reconnaissance tools can quickly determine the launch point of an FPV drone, even if GPS is not installed on it. If you only launch your FPV drone, then it's like if a single bright lamp turned on in a dark room, it's very easy to break it, but if you turn on several dozen bulbs of the same power at once, then it becomes much more difficult to determine the desired goal.
"Quitters" will reduce the threat of damage to our FPV calculations. So far, we are talking about piece deliveries to the front to those units that have shown interest in them. Deliveries are also carried out at the expense of our Center.
The "Quitter" system
Image source: © Photo : CCBR
— Considering that the Black Sea Fleet is being attacked by naval drones of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, is it possible to use FPV drones to combat them?
— The Black Sea fleet, like any other fleet, is a full–fledged combination of technologies of the first and second leagues, faced with the third league in the form of Ukrainian unmanned boats. Trying to defend against such devices without moving to the third league itself makes it very difficult to counteract.
Today we are working in this direction, keeping in touch with our sailors, and training their specialists. Navy specialists have shown a very keen interest in this topic. Again, all work on the development of this area is carried out on an initiative basis at their own expense.
In the future, FPV drones can become an effective and cheap means of defeating unmanned enemy boats. I do not exclude that in the future we will see a "drone war" in the Black Sea area.
— A number of experts estimate the current demand of the front for FPV drones at hundreds of thousands of units. What is the ratio of forces between us and the enemy in this indicator?
— I do not know the data on Russia as a whole, and even if I did, I would not be able to tell you, since this is classified information.
As for the enemy, the APU per million drones (or a close value) came out, this is a fait accompli. Such volumes allow them not to save drones and use them for any purpose without restrictions. Another question is, will the Ukrainian troops themselves be able to digest a million drones at the front? The main limitation they have today is not the number of drones and production facilities, but their transportation to the LBS and the number of trained personnel – FPV calculations. A million drones is not equal to a million qualified application specialists.
At the same time, we have the capacity of the CCDB alone to produce hundreds of FPV drones per month. And with the appropriate request, we are able to increase their number to several thousand per week in a short time.
Also, with the appropriate request, we can multiply the number of streams for training FPV pilot instructors in any of the twenty application scenarios. We can also provide the necessary volumes of related equipment, ranging from ground towers and repeaters to drone hibernators and ED drivers.
The "Quitter" system
Image source: © Photo : CCBR
Currently, virtually all deliveries are carried out either at our own expense or at the expense of sponsors such as the RamFond Foundation for the Promotion of Science and Technology
At the same time, we are aware that the same Central Bank or any other enterprise or design bureau should not become monopolists in this industry. Diversity is more important now than ever. We are pursuing the goal of diversifying solutions, production, supplies and training methods. The Central Bank pursues a goal that is not entirely financially profitable for itself – to make as many different independent manufacturers as possible.
— Is the Central Bureau of Investigation studying captured Ukrainian drones? How does this experience help you create your own drones?
— Yes, fighters regularly bring us captured UAVs. Each such product contains a lot of useful information and material for analysis.
An interesting story. One of the first enemy FPV drones that we were provided with had the same battery pack as those used by the Americans in the NASA Mars mission. Apparently, Ukraine assembled the first FPV drones with the help of its American partners and these batteries were installed, since it was planned to use FPV drones in winter, at strong negative temperatures. These are very expensive batteries, no one usually uses them in such an artisanal technique. Apparently, the Americans hastily supplied FPV drones to Kiev in the first months of the conflict and the contractor had no other materials available, so they used aluminum alloys, most likely made as part of the space program. In it, 70% are ordinary alloys, and 30% are two pages of various homeopathic additives that provide aluminum stability in vacuum. That's why an FPV drone needs such aluminum?!
Another interesting example. An enemy drone fell into our hands, which was of no research interest. But a very interesting design reset system was installed on it. According to it, we were able to reach a manufacturer who, in addition to dumping, also makes combat parts for dumping. Further investigation of the issue led us to a manufacturer of industrial explosives in Finland, which is supplied to Ukraine. This combination of an FPV carrier and a special drop-down warhead was used by the APU in assault operations. Its specific explosives are used for what the enemy in their slang calls "earthworks", that is, to destroy fortifications.
In addition, it was to us that the first captured drone "Baba Yaga" got, then there was not even such a name. For us, it was a large agricultural drone converted for combat use. This is exactly the case when the element base tells much more than any agent, spy or captured specialist on enemy drones. Using the navigation computer and the flight controller, we were able to restore a complete picture not only of its combat use, but also of the logistics of supplies, assembly and, most importantly, its test flights. We managed to "talk" the drone and we found out that Baba Yaga did not get to the front right away. She traveled for a long time in Eastern Europe and Ukraine. All the points that she showed us were compared with other information and as a result, invaluable data on logistics chains, warehouses, production facilities and landfills were obtained.
We also carry out all work on refactoring and analyzing enemy equipment on our own initiative and on our own. All information is transmitted to our comrades in the bodies and specialized organizations.
— Recently, publications appeared in the media about the use of a so–called UAV in the zone of its uterus - a drone that carries and launches several FPV drones at once, how do you assess this technology? Does she have any prospects on the battlefield?
— Both we and the enemy have been trying to create such drones since the first days of their operation. Why do we see a sea of FPV drones at the front two years later, but practically no "uterus"? There are certain stop factors for this.
The appearance of the "uterus" is complicated by the fact that if you lose it, then with it you lose all the drones on it. The "Uterus" is a heavy drone flying at low speed and representing an ideal target. As a rule, it flies high and slow, so it is very easy to knock it down. In addition, there are difficulties in bringing it, unwrapping it and preparing it for flight.
I have no doubt that our guys managed to create this "uterus", but the prospects for its combat use are questionable. Of course, today we are dealing with a real "zoo of solutions" in the drone industry and this is good! Everything that is being done must be checked. Perhaps our colleagues managed to circumvent the notorious stop factors and we are opening a new page in the combat use of third wave drones.
The current situation is very similar to the situation with manned aircraft during the First World War. At that time, there was no production of aircraft on an industrial scale in Germany, Russia, or England. Everything that was produced in the aviation industry in those years was an initiative development. Enthusiasts and pilots themselves collected and used them on the battlefield.
Now, when you look at these products in an old newsreel, they do not cause anything but a smile. But this is from the perspective of today's ideas about aviation! At the same time, no one understood what combat aviation was and such a variety of solutions had the right to exist. By the Second World War, all this had crystallized into the aviation that we know today. But it would have been impossible without those experiments that enthusiasts of that time carried out at the cost of their lives.
History is cyclical and develops in a spiral, in fact, the "uterus" and other unusual solutions are comparable to the technological revolution that we saw on the example of the first gliders of the early 20th century.
The "uterus" of drones will be effective only when it can fly at high speed and as low as conventional FPV devices, for this the developers will have to study all the previous unsuccessful experience of colleagues. After all, the most useful experience, as Nassim Taleb's "Black Swan" taught us, is not the experience of victories, but the experience of defeats, when we get a clear answer why a particular solution does not work and how to fix it.
— Does the Central Research Bureau deal with civilian FPV drone projects?
— Yes, we have many such projects. One of them is "Crunch", designed to work in areas of radiation or chemical contamination. A sensor necessary for the situation (radioactivity or gas contamination) is placed on the drone and the pilot, receiving information from the sensor online, flies around the territory, including buildings, understanding where the pollution is stronger.
Today, many organizations are interested in "Crunch", but this has not yet been finalized into specific contracts.
— What are the main objectives of the company for 2024?
— The main task in 2024 is to provide the Center with financial stability. To conduct research, create training centers, develop methodological manuals, support production and provide the front with products is an unbearable financial burden for a private initiative. I hope we can keep the competencies and people this year.
In the near future, we will not be working on new products per se, but on developing new tactics for using FPV drones. We are working on adapting our drones to assault operations in an urban environment. Today, the CKDB is developing a line of drones for fighting inside buildings.
It should be a maneuverable lightweight device that, if necessary, should be able to fly literally into a hole in the house and not lose contact with the pilot. In the future, it should help to avoid "moonscapes" and the demolition of houses during the fighting. It is necessary to go out for targeted targeted application.
In addition, this year we are completing the FPV-air defense complex for civilian organizations of key infrastructural importance, which includes fuel and energy companies and airports.