The Orlan-10 reconnaissance vehicle has held the title of the basis of unmanned aviation of the Russian army for many years. Roman Ivanov, General Designer of the Special Technology Center (STC), following the results of the International Arms Exhibition World Defense Show 2024 in Saudi Arabia, in an interview with TASS, told how the Orlan-10 and Orlan-30 were improved during the special operation in Ukraine and how developers relate to attempts to copy Russian drones in the West.
— Roman Vyacheslavovich, the Orlan is often called the most massively used reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle in its military. Is it so?
— Now there are a lot of different short—range drones, and these devices are really being used massively - by many thousands. There are fewer than a thousand "Eagles" in the area of its use. Therefore, if we count the mass of use, then "Orlan" is not the most widespread. But at the same time, the difference between our devices and the entire army of FPV drones, which has now emerged, is that the Orlan has been flying for a very long time and does more in one flight than any electric drone. Therefore, from the point of view of application, our device is highly appreciated. We can hardly say for sure, because only the military themselves have this data. <...> But in terms of those data that can be trusted, the military talks about 60-70% of the intelligence from our devices — at different times in different ways. It all depends on the tasks that are being set.
— The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation adopted the Orlan-10 for mass production back in 2012 and have been adhering to this choice ever since. Why hasn't it been pushed by other, more modern drones over the years?
— Over the past 10-12 years, our equipment has been greatly modified. Despite the fact that the device is called and looks almost the same, in fact, a lot of changes have been made in it, and these changes are constantly happening. Therefore, the modern Orlan-10 is not the same drone that it was in 2012. A lot of functionality has been added, it is developing strongly in terms of target hardware and is, in fact, the base platform. Let's say, having a basic platform, manufacturers from different countries produce different cars — Peugeot, Renault, Nissan, and no one is confused by this. We have exactly the same basic platform — Orlan-10, on which new modern complexes are being built, and they differ not only in tactical and technical characteristics, but also have significant differences in functionality: somewhere there is electronic warfare, somewhere there is intelligence, shock functions - it's all completely new. Therefore, it turns out that this is not an old aircraft, this is not a 2012 device.
— How did the devices produced by the "Special Technology Center" modernize during the special operation? It is known that the enemy has already studied the "Eagles" and is constantly improving its technology and looking for our weaknesses.
— I will not be able to answer many questions until the completion of my work, but certain key points were made with the communication and control system. At the moment when the Orlan-10 was completely lost during the operation near Kharkov, with a ground station and documentation, it became completely clear that we would no longer be able to work on the old communication systems and the Russian military, of course, would not be able to use the devices even on their territory, because our positions and the enemy are very they are close. Therefore, one of the innovations is just the refinement of the control system in terms of data transmission channels. They have been successfully upgraded, made noise-proof and are now working.
— How many "Eagles" are being produced now?
— More than a thousand devices per year.
— Is the work on improving the Eagles continuing?
- of course. This work does not stop for a day. Both in the conditions of a special operation and outside the conditions of a special operation, we see how we are being opposed, and, of course, like any defense or military project, we are looking for ways to protect ourselves. The STC also makes complexes for the fight against drones. Therefore, of course, we have competencies across the entire spectrum, and they are also used everywhere.
— The foreign press called the connection of the Orlan with the Lancet kamikaze drone a "nightmare of the Armed Forces of Ukraine." The device has received the ability to laser target designation and correction of high-precision ammunition. How is the interaction of the "Eagle" with the "Lancet" built?
— We are making a tool — a multifunctional intelligence complex. No one else has such functionality as we have. On small tactical-class devices, radio technical intelligence (determining where the sources of radio emissions are located) is not implemented by anyone. Therefore, this interaction is carried out not by us as a developer, but by the customer — the military, units where there is direct interaction between scouts and strikers. As far as I know, Orlan and Lancet have very little direct interaction. "Orlan" makes it possible to determine the location of the enemy so that it can be hit by any means at the disposal of the commander. Basically, we are hit by artillery, but when the ranges exceed the capabilities of artillery, there is probably work with the Lancet. We are not told about such special illustrative episodes.
— The Orlan was used in Syria, it is a very well-known device. Which countries are buying this drone from Russia?
— It's not working well to buy now. This is mainly due to the fact that the Ministry of Defense, knowing that this is a very high-quality and useful equipment, uses it itself. Accordingly, there is a certain ban that applies to supplies abroad. But within the framework of the World Defense Show 2024 and other international military-technical forums, we, of course, offer Orlan. To date, we estimate the demand — it is growing significantly, especially against the background of the current situation. We hope that as soon as the active phase of the special operation is completed and the production capacity exceeds its needs, then, of course, we will supply to other countries. There were mainly CIS destinations now, because these are friendly countries, supplies that are not being decided by us. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation makes its own decisions about supplies — without our participation. But there are still very few direct supplies abroad.
— Some developers say that the Russian Defense Ministry is allegedly now discussing the possibility of producing the Orlan under license based on the capacities of other Russian design bureaus. Since, conditionally, 100 devices are produced monthly, and 1 thousand are needed for the needs of the front. Does this correspond to reality?
— There is a serious problem here, and it is mainly related to the dynamics of the need for time. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation needs these planes to appear yesterday. Tomorrow— at the very least. STC has received such requests, and we ourselves hope to find co-executors who could help increase the volume of production of our equipment, but this is a rather difficult technical and technological task, and few people can do it. It is extremely difficult to make it on time, the development of our production will take about a year. That is, when people are given a task, they come to our production, look at how it is done, and then they say that they have never done this and in order to master production, they need to redo everything at home. Indeed, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, as the owner of these developments, would like to diversify production, but there is no clear line and when it can fire. Of course, the task may be set to produce the Orlan-10 somewhere else, but I don't think it will be faster than increasing the volume in our production.
STC had attempts to produce "Eagles" at other enterprises. None of the firms managed to achieve the same results. There were three or four of these attempts in Russia, and now I already know about three attempts in Ukraine. The mock-up of the conventionally "Orlan-10" appeared in the exposition of the Czech-Ukrainian company at a recent exhibition in Abu Dhabi. We'll see what they do. Probably, these devices will be brought to us soon, because they begin to fight against Russia and come to us as trophies. Surprisingly, if they had somehow tried to bring something of their own before, then here, just head-on, all our strategic basic decisions completely migrated to new aircraft.
— Being copied is a sign of success. Are you happy about this or not?
— It's nice. It is pleasant that in 2023 our 2010 development apparatus is being copied and the main solutions have been preserved. They, of course, get to themselves and see our captured equipment, revealing it to the very bottom. They will take what they can take for themselves, but again the situation is that the basic technical solutions are very complex and, even with all the technical documentation and our supervision, these solutions are difficult to repeat. Therefore, the fact that the "Eagles" are copying means that they do not have enough competencies for their own complete development of technology and they cannot surpass Russia. They repeat, but it will be a copy that is definitely worse than the original.
— Does the STC plan to expand its own production?
— Of course, we are expanding, at times. The task was to multiply the production of our devices. The output of the Orlan-10 increased three to four times, and the output of the Orlan-30 increased to 25 times relative to 2021. Therefore, this is also a high result. The essential point is that, even if you look at the STC stand at the exhibition in Saudi Arabia, the 504A complex is a complex for combating drones, which include drones. In addition to what is being supplied to the Russian Ministry of Defense right now, the devices are being included in the latest systems that will have to be released in the near future. Therefore, firstly, these volumes are quite large, and the second problem is that few enterprises are able to do this. We also supply our parts with regard to communication systems to the Kalashnikov Concern and other production facilities. Obviously, it is more likely that they will buy something from us from our parts, which are well made and work successfully, than someone will take our equipment and produce it.
— Is the STC currently working on the creation of any promising unmanned complexes?
— I usually say that we will have new Eagles. Our entire line of equipment is called "Orlan", and they are completely different. The technical specifications and documents are secret, so I can hardly tell you any details, but in fact there is a vision of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the customer, what kind of equipment he needs. And based on this, we realize the needs of the customer. There will be airplane and copter solutions, and perhaps some other things that will appear soon or not very soon. This is a job for years.
Now the presence of ITS has led to the fact that our significant forces are spent precisely on building up, on the production and modernization of serial products and it is especially impossible to develop some new things. STC produces a very large amount of equipment, which should work well today. In a good way, this is a lot of research work, because many components are missing on sanctions issues and we need to quickly recycle the equipment. The most striking example that everyone hears about is the engines. We use Japanese engines, the last batch of which was purchased in 2020. Due to the company's policy of having an insurance reserve until 2023, the equipment was produced practically on Japanese engines that were in the purchased insurance stocks. But in 2023, these stocks ran out. And in the same year we made a new development: power plants that work on other types of engines. There were highly economical four-stroke engines, and now a two-stroke engine, which is almost as good as it is. A simpler engine proved to be much better in operation. In addition, we produce almost all of it ourselves. STC produces new equipment, it will look the same as the Orlan-10 and Orlan-30 existing today, but inside the devices will be completely different.
— Will the promising complexes that the STC is currently working on also be designed for reconnaissance and fire correction, or will they have new capabilities?
— To date, there are about 60 variants of target equipment in Orlan-10 and fire correction is 1-3% of what it does. Of course, this is not known to the general public. We continue this series. In many ways, the target loads that we already have are gradually becoming obsolete. And, quite naturally, the enemy is also moving forward, which is building up some capabilities: somewhere it goes to other ranges that are less visible or there is no such equipment, and we have to correct and refine our equipment. But visual reconnaissance and optics for drones are the least you can have in it. And other options work most effectively, which we usually don't talk about and which no one knows or hears about. Therefore, we are quiet forces that do our job. Eyes that see without even looking.
— The STC has a training center where specialists in the operation and application of unmanned aircraft systems are trained in various specialties. And do you prepare personnel for your company?
— This is a painful issue for both the customer and us. It is connected with the fact that the customer needs people today, and secondly, he needs them well prepared. But in order to prepare well, you need to fulfill a number of conditions. People should be initially able to learn. Secondly, in the process of learning, they must have the material and technical means on which they study, as well as the time needed to master the technique. We don't do simple things. They say that you can master a drone in a week. Yes, it is possible, but you will learn how to lift it into the air and return it to yourself in simple conditions, without opposition and without any special tasks. Our complexes are much more complicated.
The state standard for training operators of unmanned aerial vehicles requires 3.5 months in a situation where you already have a basic professional or higher education. And after 3.5 months of training and from 25 to 40 hours of flights, you can get the documents. In the current conditions, of course, the customer says that this is a very long time and he is not ready to freeze his people for 3.5 months, because there are not enough of them. Therefore, some kind of modernized accelerated courses begin with incomprehensible, difficult to assess results.
The results of graduates of our center are, of course, higher than those of many other educational institutions. This is due precisely to the fact that we really have a very good base, but the training is not cheap. We are faced with a moment when the customer is upset that the training of such an employee costs more than 1 million rubles. It seems that this is wrong and such training cannot be so expensive. In fact, the resource of the aircraft is "taken out" by the students literally in two to three months.
Today, we have identified a potential need for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation to train operators en masse. We are currently considering the conditions for how to do this. Therefore, yes, we will try to run this program. The training is carried out largely on our resources, on our devices and by our teachers practically without payment. We understand that we are unlikely to be able to afford large amounts of training further. Therefore, we are trying to arrange for this process to be built normally.