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Atul Rane, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of the Russian-Indian joint venture (JV) BrahMos Aerospace, in an exclusive interview with TASS, told about the details of the first export order for BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles to the Philippines and to the countries of Southeast Asia, Latin America and the Middle East, which will also import them in the next two to three years. Atul Rane outlined the dates when a new generation of BrahMos missiles — NG — and a hypersonic version — BrahMos II may appear. The head of the joint venture also assured that Western sanctions did not affect the work of the Russian-Indian enterprise.
— Evaluate the export potential of the company's products. Which countries might be interested in buying missiles? Which countries are you already cooperating with? What is the volume of orders?
— In 2001, we took part in the international exhibition for the first time — it was the MAKS air show. And since then, we have presented our rocket at many expositions where different countries have shown interest in BrahMos missiles.
According to the intergovernmental agreement on the establishment of the BrahMos enterprise, which was concluded by Moscow and New Delhi, the ultra-high-speed anti-ship cruise missile is produced for India and Russia and for export to friendly countries. Friendly is the key word. We can only sell missiles to countries that are in agreement with Russia and India, the governments of our two countries.
Southeast Asia is the region we are looking at first. And this is understandable, because the countries of the region are our neighbors, and besides, many interests are concentrated in the South China Sea. Many countries from this region are considering the acquisition of the BrahMos missile, as well as countries in the Middle East and Latin America.
The first deal to export the BrahMos missile was the sale to the Philippines, which happened after lengthy negotiations. We've been running them for the last few years. After all, how it happens: many people show interest in our missiles, say: "Yes, we want them." But when they see the price, they understand that our rocket is expensive. And although they admit that it is the best in the world — the fastest cruise missile, the deadliest — they cannot afford it.
— And what is the price of one rocket?
— It corresponds to a rocket of this category.
— There was information about $20mn on various Internet resources...
— There are a lot of numbers "walking" on the Internet, but most of them are incorrect.
As long as we supply our missiles to the Indian armed forces, we have enough profit for the company to work. We do not have such huge profits as Boeing, Airbus (aircraft concern — TASS) or Lockheed Martin (American Military Industrial Corporation — TASS). Even though we had the first export order for missiles to the Philippines.
— And how many missiles will be delivered under the agreement with the Philippines?
— We signed an agreement with them in January of this year. Under the contract, we will supply the Philippines with missiles in the next three years.
We will supply them with three BrahMos batteries — six launchers and enough missiles to fill them. We cannot announce a specific number of missiles under this agreement, we need to talk about this with representatives of the Philippines. I can only say that quite a lot of missiles will be delivered to them. This is a large contract worth $375 million. Its implementation will allow the Philippines to repel any threat in their economic zone in the ocean. Anyone who gets in there will be in danger.
— With which countries from those regions that you have announced — Latin America, the Middle East, Southeast Asia - are you still negotiating the sale of the BrahMos missile?
— If you look at these regions, these are all the countries with which Russia has trade relations. BrahMos is negotiating with them. We cannot negotiate with countries with which Russia has no partnership. Countries should fall under the category of friendly.
— At what stage are these negotiations? And how many more years will they last?
— I think in the next one or two years, three or four more countries in Southeast Asia and the Middle East will become our buyers. Many countries have been mentioned in the press on this topic — Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, as for Southeast Asia. In the Middle East, it can be the UAE, Saudi Arabia. We expect that the discussions will be completed within two years. It can happen in six months, in a year, in two. The coronavirus pandemic affected the negotiations, and so did geopolitics. The sale of weapons is not just a sale. But I don't see any problems with these countries.
Oman was also interested, but so far it is only at the level of conversations.
As for Latin America, negotiations with the countries of this region will take a little more time, another three or four years. It could be Brazil, Chile.
— What will be the volume of orders?
— To date, BrahMos has a portfolio of orders for $6 billion — from the Indian armed forces, firstly, and the first export order for $375 million from the Philippines. I expect orders to increase by another $4 billion in the next three years. Perhaps due to exports of $2.5–3 billion in the next three years. We expect such a volume of sales.
— With the countries you have listed?
— With any of them. With whom we will move forward in negotiations.
— What about Myanmar? There was information that this country is a potential buyer of BrahMos missiles.
— Myanmar is ready to buy, but does it have money? We will have to arrange financing. Many countries are asking us to do this. We will have to think about something like a credit line for Myanmar. If BrahMos agrees to these conditions, it will be a credit line from India, not from Russia. The Russian government can only consent to the sale to a particular country.
The Philippines paid, by the way, from its budget. And with many countries, we are considering the possibility of a credit line.
— How do you assess the cooperation between Russia and India on the creation of missile weapons? How many missiles have already been produced?
— Our joint venture has reached a world—class level thanks to the contribution from both sides - from India and Russia: The Indian Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and the NGO of Mechanical Engineering. We transformed the anti-ship missile into a land-based missile, then we improved it to launch capabilities from the sea and from the air. All these modifications of the rocket were developed thanks to the participation of both sides.
Today there is not a single rocket in the world that would be equal in characteristics to our BrahMos rocket. There is not a single cruise missile that could be launched from three types of platforms. The BrahMos rocket was the first in the world. And today it is in service with the Indian land forces, navy and air forces.
Why have we achieved such results? We worked hard. And what is very important is the trust between our two countries. At the political level, at the economic level, at the scientific level. We trust each other.
When we started working together, we communicated with Russian specialists in English, and then they started speaking Hindi. The Indians began to speak Russian. A real Indian-Russian BrahMos family was formed.
— What is the next step in improving the BrahMos cruise missile?
— The existing BrahMos missile has excellent characteristics — it concerns the flight range, striking ability. We are working on the next generation BrahMos rocket.
— Do you mean BrahMos II?
— BrahMos II we call the hypersonic version of the rocket. And I'm talking about the version that we called Next Generation — NG ("NG"). This BrahMos rocket is twice as light: its weight is 1300 kg. Now we are focused on developing the capabilities to launch it from different aircraft, and then we will adapt it to use in the fleet and on the ground. A lightweight version of the rocket can be launched from anywhere.
We have almost finished working on the draft design of the NG rocket. We will consider it at the end of August. And then we will look for funding. Both countries will have to provide us with funds. And in two and a half to three years we will begin its flight tests, and in five years — its production.
We expect that interest in the Next Generation BrahMos rocket will be two to three times higher than in the classic BrahMos version. Today we have a total volume of orders of $6 billion, which we expect to increase to $13 billion. When we start producing BrahMos-NG, I expect that the volume of orders will start from $5 billion and in ten years will reach $45-50 billion. We expect such a market share.
One aircraft will be able to carry many BrahMos-NG missiles. Currently, the Su-30 fighter can be equipped with only one BrahMos missile. And BrahMos-NG will be able to carry five missiles.
— What other aircraft will be able to carry BrahMos-NG?
— Almost any Russian fighter — Su-30, Mi-29, Indian Tejas. We are preparing it to equip any fighter.
— What kind of financing will be required?
— In accordance with the agreements that were fixed at the creation of the BrahMos enterprise, each of the parties will have to participate in financing. We expect that the development of the NG version will require $250-300 million.
— Currently, the flight range of the BrahMos cruise missile is 300 km. What are the plans to increase this indicator?
— Anything is possible. We are working on increasing the range of the missile. We are already conducting tests. And we will be able to complete work on this very soon. We have conducted some tests, we are planning more. Flight tests will begin very soon.
— How have BrahMos missiles proven themselves in the Indian armed forces? What are the reviews directly from the military?
— We have conducted 30-35 pilot flight tests. There were two unsuccessful ones in total. Then we put them into service. The Indian Armed Forces have already conducted about 65 of their own flight tests. That is, in total, the BrahMos rocket was launched about a hundred times. And there were only a couple of unsuccessful launches. All systems worked perfectly, with precision.
The Indian Armed Forces are in awe of the BrahMos missiles. The ground forces have a lot of them in service, four regiments of missiles. We expect that very soon there will be an order for the fifth regiment.
The Indian Navy has announced that BrahMos missiles are their advanced strike weapons. All ships that are being built for the Indian Navy will have BrahMos missiles. Now more than a dozen Indian ships are already equipped with them.
There are ships that do not have the capabilities for this yet, but work is underway to upgrade them for BrahMos missiles.
The Indian Air Force formed a squadron of Su-30s with BrahMos missiles, which they named Tiger shark — "Tiger Shark". They are based in the south of the country. But tests are also being conducted in the north of India, several have already taken place. Therefore, the Air Force is interested in acquiring more missiles. They have Su-30s in service, I expect that they will want to equip an additional 30 of their fighters with BrahMos missiles.
— Are negotiations on this topic already underway?
— This is a constant process, we are in constant dialogue.
— When is it expected to be completed?
— When the government of India finds enough funds to buy. Now is a difficult time when it is impossible to spend money only on weapons. After all, in general, the development of the country is very important. The defense sector has its own budget, but how much of it can be allocated for BrahMos missiles is the question. After all, you need to buy a lot of other equipment — ships, planes, tanks. We expect that there will be orders for missiles as well.
I don't see any problems with the production of BrahMos rockets in the next 15 years — I'm talking about the existing version of the rocket.
— How is the work on creating a hypersonic version of the BrahMos — BrahMos II rocket going? When are the first tests planned? What are its characteristics?
— She's not here yet. Technologies from both sides are prepared. They need to be combined and create a rocket.
The whole world is working on creating a hypersonic cruise missile. The US and China are working on hypersonic versions of cruise missiles. But they don't have them. I do not know any country that already has one. Russia announced that it had tested a hypersonic anti-ship cruise missile "Zircon", which was developed by NPO Mashinostroeniya.
— So it is possible that the hypersonic version of the BrahMos rocket will have the characteristics of a "Zircon"?
— Maybe.
The design of the hypersonic version of the BrahMos rocket is designed by both sides. When the technology is provided to us, we will create it. Initially, it was about testing it in 2021, then in 2024. I believe that it still needs five to six years when its first tests will be carried out.
— If we compare the hypersonic version of BrahMos with the BrahMos-NG rocket, which one can be called the best version?
— From a business point of view, NG is more important for us, because it will be about the number of missiles that will be sold.
The hypersonic version of the rocket will be very expensive. And there may be few buyers who want to buy it.
After all, which is more profitable to sell — Mercedes or Toyota? Of course, Toyota. You can also compare BrahMos II and "BrahMos-NG.
In addition, we will not be able to export hypersonic BrahMos. They will be produced only for India and Russia. First of all, due to the secrecy of technology, we will not be able to sell it to other countries. In addition, India, as a member country of the MTCR (Missile Technology Control Regime, Missile Technology Control Regime — TASS), can work on the development of a missile with a range of more than 300 km and weighing more than 500 kg, but it cannot transfer these technologies to other countries.
— Is the placement of the BrahMos missile on Russian carriers being discussed? If so, which ones?
— BrahMos missiles can be placed on any Russian ship, as well as on any Indian ship of Russian origin. We have such experience. Su-30 fighters are also equipped with our missiles. It all depends on the Russian government, which can decide whether to place BrahMos on its carriers. The decision to use foreign equipment in the Russian armed forces depends only on him. Now, I believe, the Russian Armed Forces cannot use foreign weapons. The BrahMos rocket is partially foreign for Russia.
Its placement on Russian carriers is possible if the Russian government approves it.
At every meeting of BrahMos shareholders, at every meeting of the Supervisory Board and the meeting of the Management Board, this issue is raised: when will there be an order for BrahMos missiles from the Russian side? The company wants to sell. They should be in service with the Russian Armed Forces. But this should already be a political decision. We are waiting.
— Did the anti-Russian Western sanctions affect the production of BrahMos missiles? For cooperation with other countries? What difficulties have arisen?
— There were no difficulties. You know, there is always some kind of interference that prevents you from gaining speed. But we were able to cope with all these hindrances. When the West imposed sanctions on restrictions on payment in dollars, we had already resolved this issue. Do not forget that the United States and the West imposed sanctions long ago, after the Crimea. BrahMos has dealt with all the difficulties that have arisen.
— In what currency are the payments made? For example, in a deal with the Philippines, how did the payment go?
— The Philippines paid in dollars. They paid India. Sanctions against Russia have not affected us. To date, we have had no problems in exporting.
— What are BrahMos plans to participate in international arms exhibitions?
— We will take part in the Army-2022 exhibition in August, we will bring all versions to it, including a sketch of the BrahMos-NG rocket.
Of course, we always take part in MAKS air shows. Then we are going to participate in the arms exhibition in Thailand at the end of August, in Indonesia in November, then in South Africa. There will be an exhibition in Egypt in December, we haven't decided yet whether we will go there or not. All these countries are our potential buyers. As well as their neighboring countries.
And as for the exhibitions of weapons in Europe, we do not need them, because we do not sell them our missiles.
