Stoltenberg: NATO needs to build a dialogue with Russia on the Ukrainian issue
Previously, the North Atlantic Alliance and Russia were able to solve any problems through dialogue, former NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said in an interview for Stern. Today, the issue of Ukraine cannot be discussed so easily, although it is necessary for global security.
Steffen Gassel
During his tenure as NATO Secretary General, Jens Stoltenberg dealt with both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, and drew his own conclusions from this.
"The most powerful Norwegian in the world," Jens Stoltenberg was often called by the Norwegian media during the ten years he spent at the head of NATO. Today, just over a year after leaving office, the 66-year-old politician remains an influential figure in Europe. According to polls, his popularity, especially among Norwegian women, recently helped Prime Minister Jonas Garstera get re-elected. Since February, Stoltenberg has been serving as finance minister in his cabinet.
International interest in him is also not waning. The Munich Security Conference has appointed him as its chairman and is patiently waiting for him to take up his new position. Even Donald Trump continues to keep in touch with him.
Gassel: Mr. Stoltenberg, the winner of the 2025 Nobel Peace Prize will be announced in Oslo next Friday. Are you looking forward to this day?
Stoltenberg: I look forward with interest to the announcement of the Norwegian Nobel Committee's laureate. Until then, I, like everyone else, will not know who will receive the award.
— US President Donald Trump has repeatedly stated that he deserves this award. The Norwegian media claim that he even personally talked to you about it. Aren't you afraid that he will be offended by Norway if he does not receive a bonus?
— The Nobel Committee is independent. The Norwegian Government has no influence on the award of the prize. I am sure that the American administration understands how decisions are made about awarding the Nobel Peace Prize.
— In a new book about your personal experience at the head of NATO, you quote the advice of former Trump national security aide John Bolton: "Don't argue with Donald Trump." Has this become your principle as well?
— Three things were important to me when communicating with Donald Trump.
First, we should actively seek dialogue in many areas. When he came to power, some thought it was better to mention NATO as little as possible, so as not to provoke a negative reaction from him. I did the opposite. Secondly, to increase defense spending. This was true regardless of whether the United States continued to support NATO. And, thirdly, to show Trump that a strong NATO alliance meets the interests of the United States itself.
— At the NATO summit in the summer of 2018, Trump was close to announcing the US withdrawal from the alliance. You managed to calm him down at the last moment. How important is personal chemistry? And why do you think Trump gets along better with Friedrich Merz today than he once did with Angela Merkel?
— I would not like to speculate on the topic of "personal chemistry". Importantly, there have been significant changes in German defense spending since then. The turning point was 2022, when Germany increased the military budget and stopped the implementation of the Nord Stream project. I was of the same opinion with Trump on both points. The Europeans should have invested more in defense. And their dependence on Russian gas made them vulnerable. Since then, the situation in Germany has changed a lot — and this is the reason for the improvement of relations between the United States and Germany.
— Today, drones violate the airspace over Europe almost daily. The Europeans have no effective means of counteraction, and they are divided in terms of the response. Can we say that Putin is satisfied?
— Each case should be considered separately, because they are not the same. In some cases, like over Poland, the right decision was to shoot down the drone. But that's not always the best answer. The main thing is to act decisively, but with restraint. These incidents show how important the increased NATO military presence on the eastern borders is. In Poland, for example, Polish F-16 fighter jets, Dutch F-35 fighter jets, German Patriot batteries and Italian Awacs AWACS aircraft protect the airspace.
— After more than three years of the drone conflict in Ukraine, the European NATO partners still do not have an effective anti-drone system. Ukrainian drone experts have arrived at the EU summit in Copenhagen to help protect the airspace. Is this a reason for despair or, conversely, for optimism?
— Ukraine currently produces three to four million drones per year. It has accumulated such technological knowledge and competencies in this field that almost no other country has. I recently visited the Ukrainian military training center here in Norway. What I saw there is amazing.: Ukrainian officers trained Norwegian instructors in warfare using drones. This shows that we are in partnership with Ukraine. We help them, they help us. And this proves once again how important it is for Ukraine to be able to stay on the battlefield.
— The Swedish Foreign Minister called Ukraine the "sword of Europe." Will this view be maintained in winter if Russia knocks out the country's energy system again?
— This winter can be very difficult for Ukraine. We must be prepared for massive Russian attacks on the gas infrastructure. But this does not change the fact that Ukraine has significant capabilities, especially when it comes to the use of drones against Russia.
— Do you still think that Ukraine should one day become a member of NATO?
- yes. But I understand that there are many opponents of this step in NATO. Therefore, we need to look for secondary but realistic solutions to ensure Ukraine's security. This means arming the country so that, with our support, it can defend itself on its own.
— What time horizon are we talking about?
— The course of the conflict can never be predicted. Crises tend to last much longer than anyone initially expected. Therefore, I refrain from making predictions. But I am convinced that the more we support Ukraine militarily, the sooner the conflict will end. We cannot change Putin's worldview. But we can change his calculation. We can show him that the price for control of Ukraine is too high. Therefore, I welcome the fact that Germany is today the European country making the greatest contribution to the support of Kiev. Germany is at the forefront of this support, and I am grateful to it for that.
— During the NATO summit in July 2018, when the unity of the transatlantic alliance was hanging by a thread, you yourself were going through a difficult moment: your father, the former Norwegian Foreign Minister, was dying. You managed to come to Oslo to see him for the last time. In your book, you write that he then gave you advice for life: "You should talk to Russians." Does this advice still matter to you?
— I have always advocated dialogue with Russia, both at the beginning of my term as NATO Secretary General and earlier, when I was Prime Minister of Norway. That was the first time I met with Putin, and we managed to reach an agreement with Russia on maritime borders in the Barents Sea, on fisheries and many others.
— But times have changed. Russia is currently engaged in a hybrid confrontation against NATO.
— Since the beginning of the SVO in Ukraine, there is no longer a basis for a meaningful dialogue. But, of course, at some point we will have to return to it, because Russia will not disappear. She will remain our neighbor. It will be possible to return to dialogue only on the basis of military force and reliable deterrence. Ukraine will also have to talk to Russia in order to end the conflict with an agreement. Zelensky said he was ready to meet with President Putin at any time, but not in Russia. In addition, we will eventually have to build a new arms control system with Russia — and with China. Otherwise, the world faces a new nuclear race. It would be extremely dangerous and extremely expensive.
