Alexey Eliseev became the first flight director of manned spacecraft and orbital stations in the history of Russian cosmonautics. He turns 90 on July 13, 2024. Due to his advanced age, Alexey Stanislavovich was unable to communicate directly, however, Vladimir Solovyov, a colleague and student of Eliseev, the current flight director of the Russian segment of the International Space Station, General Designer — Deputy General Director of PJSC RSC Energia, told TASS in an interview about him, his merits and the difficulties of working in such a post.
— Vladimir Alekseevich, July 13 marks the 90th anniversary of Alexei Stanislavovich Eliseev, the oldest living Soviet cosmonaut, twice a Hero of the Soviet Union. He flew into space three times — from 1969 to 1971. Please tell us about him. What kind of tasks did he have to perform in space? What valuable experience did his flights give to modern crews?
— It's worth starting with the fact that Alexey Stanislavovich was one of the first civilian cosmonauts who were the first to professionally test our spacecraft.
Alexey Eliseev, 1969
Image source: © Valentin Cheredintsev/ TASS
And his flights, of course, were completely unique — in fact, these were the first test flights of the new Soyuz spacecraft. It was Yeliseyev's crew who first completed the entire flight program. And it was difficult: they performed the docking of two ships, the transfer of crew members to another ship. I would like to emphasize that such very, very complex operations in outer space have seriously advanced space technologies.
The number of operations and experiments that Eliseev performed during three flights is still being performed today for a larger number of expeditions.
— After completing his work as a cosmonaut, Alexey Stanislavovich became the head of manned flights of the USSR. What kind of work is this?
— He was the first flight director, then there was Valery Ryumin, and the third is your humble servant. By the way, the flight director still works in an office in the Mission Control Center, which was inhabited by Eliseev in 1973 under the Soyuz — Apollo program. I'm trying to keep the office exactly the same as it was. Valera Ryumin also worked here.
Alexey Stanislavovich has always been distinguished by an interest in new things, this trait is inherent in him today, despite his advanced age. He was on the team of Boris Viktorovich Rauschenbach (Soviet physicist, one of the founders of the Soviet space program — approx. TASS). Possessing fundamental knowledge, knowledge of celestial mechanics, and manned flight, Eliseev always carefully analyzed the technical problems and tasks that arose. He has a favorite saying: "I would like to understand in detail." In addition, he feels very acutely when a person is "fantasizing" about something.
Who is the flight director? After increasing the duration of spacecraft flights, a task arose: to create a new profession on a scientific basis — people who not only control some complex spacecraft, but also shoulder the burden of responsibility for safe management. People are very, very highly qualified and in a very difficult business.
Alexey Stanislavovich, with his inquisitive mind and professional approach to work, was the best person for this position.
He has created a unique team. Ryumin and I then, in fact, picked up his work when he left, and began to develop it, realizing that the devices were becoming more complex, flights were taking longer, and therefore new solutions needed to be applied so that the structure of the control system did not grow to tens of thousands of people.
Today, we are trying to cope with the work of as few people as possible, although the International Space Station is a much more complex object in terms of management compared to the first orbital complexes. Yes, from the point of view of management science, the laws have not changed, but the amount of information has increased, the available time has significantly decreased, and technology has become much more complex.
— And the position, it turns out, was created simultaneously with the Mission Control Center (MCC) itself?
— The Mission Control Center was created, of course, earlier, but Alexey Stanislavovich actually created the architecture of manned flight control. He noted that there are things characteristic of any device: the necessary commands must be formed for it, which are then transmitted through a system of ground measuring points along a ballistically calculated path. At the same time, the formation of teams is the prerogative of the creators of the device. The issue of sending them on board is a matter for the MCC, and management is the task of the Main Operational Management Group, which includes specialists from all enterprises involved in the creation and operation of the device.
— So the MCC used to work differently?
— The work of the Mission Control Center changed with the change and complication of the devices themselves and their flight program. If at first, roughly speaking, the device was launched, they communicated with it a couple of times through commands and then it returned, then people began to fly for weeks, months, to carry out one or another flight program, the question arose of training flight control specialists.
Now personnel are being trained for us in more than one institution of higher education — both in Baumank, MAI, and Voenmekh already have departments that train specialists in flight control. But when Eliseev was engaged in this work in the early 70s, we had to seriously think about the selection of people. The theory of automatic control, known to many scientists, had to be transformed into such a large-format science of operational management of a set of complex systems that are very, very far from those people who are engaged in management. This embodiment of theory in practice led to the creation of what today we call the Main Operational Management Group, or GOGU. Later, when international flights began, for example, under the Soyuz — Apollo program, a building was already built for the tasks of GOGU, light and heat were installed, a computer complex was placed in it, and a Mission Control Center was created. And today, the scheme laid down under Yeliseyev continues to work: the MCC considers how to get the team on board, and the implementation of the flight program is the Main operational control group.
— Your first flight took place in 1984. Was Eliseev still in charge of flights then?
— On my first flight, he led the flights, and on the second flight, Valery Viktorovich Ryumin was already the head.
— Half a century has passed since the 1970s, when Eliseev assumed the position of flight director. What has changed during this time in terms of job responsibilities, nuances of work?
— Something has remained unchanged, but something has changed dramatically. As then, the head of the flight is appointed by the government by a decision of the state commission. This is, as a rule, an astronaut with experience in long-term space flights, who is responsible, firstly, for the safety of the crew, secondly, for the normal functioning of space technology and, thirdly, for the most complete implementation of the flight program. Here are three main points, which, in fact, were laid down by Alexey Stanislavovich Eliseev.
As for the changes, of course, space technology has become more complex, its control systems have changed, and digitalization has occurred. And once the control object has changed, then after it, and sometimes with anticipation, the control system, or, as we sometimes say, the "management tool", changes. The main flight control room of the International Space Station and a large number of rooms next to it on several floors are a complex, diverse and large control tool. But people are still the main ones in it. Because we don't have many such specialists.
— What makes GOGU employees so unique?
— First of all, we need people who are dedicated to their work. This is extremely important. Naturally, they must have the necessary qualifications, but without love for what you do, without interest, you will not be able to work here. This was also laid down by Alexey Eliseev.
— About 50 years have passed since the establishment of the position of flight director, and recently you said that the Russian Orbital Station (ROS) being created could work in orbit for half a century. How, in your opinion, can the functionality of a flight director change in 50 years?
— There will be many changes, and much earlier than this period. We are specially creating the Russian orbital station for flight in fundamentally different, near-polar orbits, if compared with the orbit of the ISS. And this flight path, of course, forms its own control features. Today, we have satellite and ground-based control systems with ground stations on the territory of the country. To grow them, they will need to be positioned differently, this is not an easy task.
In addition, when creating the Russian Orbital Station, fundamentally different approaches to many on-board systems are used. The station will be digital, with powerful backup systems, there will be many new tasks that will need to be solved in difficult conditions, since our new station must fly in polar regions where there is no magnetosphere, where there is a different propagation of radio waves, where there is a negative influence of the ionosphere. So we have quite serious problems to solve.
— What will happen to the Main Control Room and the people who work here after the ISS operation is completed?
— The hall will not be lost. We will think about how to manage other projects from here, for example, the lunar program. We need to set goals for ourselves and move gradually. By the way, this is one of the slogans of Alexei Stanislavovich Eliseev. In the past, when the MCC was created, we told him that we still did not have a management facility, but we were already preparing for something. He answered us: there will be a management facility.
To the question of planning. Eliseev once told me a very interesting story, which was told to him by the head of the selection and training of the first cosmonauts, Nikolai Petrovich Kamanin, Colonel—General of aviation, he was one of the first to receive the title Hero of the Soviet Union. And long before the Great Patriotic War, Kamanin, then still a lieutenant, once traveled from the Far East by train and met in a compartment also with a pilot named Vinogradov. At that time, it seems, he was in the rank of major, and the brother of this pilot was sleeping on the top shelf. They started talking, and Vinogradov asked who Kamanin saw himself as in the future. He replied that he would teach other pilots, but did not look very far, to which Major Vinogradov noticed: "We need to think bigger and bigger tasks! I'm going to command the air force, and my brother will be the ambassador to France." To this, Nikolai Petrovich noted that the USSR does not have diplomatic relations with France. And he replied to him: "And we dream that then diplomatic relations will be established, and my brother will become ambassador to France."
Already closer to the 60s, Kamanin, who was instructed to select and train the first cosmonauts, went with an inspection to military units in Central Asia and on one of his business trips flew near Tashkent, where Lieutenant General Vasily Alexandrovich Vinogradov commands the 30th Air Army. "I arrived, I said, "Do you remember how we talked in the compartment?" — and the one: "Of course I remember!"
But this is not the end of the story. After Yuri Alekseevich Gagarin's flight, Kamanin accompanied him on various trips around the world. And in Paris they met with the Soviet Ambassador to France… By Sergey Alexandrovich Vinogradov.
Why I told you this: when we realized about six years ago that the ISS program was coming to an end, we began to think seriously about the future.
— We are currently in the Main Flight Control Room of the Russian segment of the ISS. There is also a workplace for the flight director. Has it changed a lot since Alexey Stanislavovich's work?
— Of course. Even the hall was different. The hall from which the flight of the previous orbital complexes was controlled was located in another building, next to the office of the flight director. After the flooding of the Mir station, it is not used, but soon a ROS control room will be created in it. There are two such large halls in the MCC — the former Mirovsky and this one, where we control the flight of the ISS. And it was created under the Energy — Buran program. Our reusable ship was controlled from here in its only flight.
— What other merits of Alexey Stanislavovich can be mentioned?
— Here we need to go back to the past again. Initially, during the time of Gagarin and the first flights, management was based on ground-based measuring points. Historically, since the launch of the first artificial Earth satellite in 1957, it turned out that they all belonged to the military. In the USA, by the way, the situation was similar. But then civilian astronauts flew, satellites appeared, working in the interests of the civilian sector of the economy, and it became clear that the problem needed to be solved somehow. It is impractical to build civilian ground stations in addition to the military, so it was decided to actually "rent" the military. As a result, the following interaction scheme was born: The ground measuring points themselves are commanded by the military, and the civilian specialists who created this or that device determine which commands and to which device to transmit. It turned out to be such a parallel scheme with two teams, and in this situation it is always difficult to organize work — this often significantly reduces the efficiency and level of responsibility in decision-making.
We must pay tribute to Eliseev, who was one of the first to realize that this scheme does not work. And after very long discussions, various notes and meetings, at the highest level — even Brezhnev was informed — they finally agreed to create a single structure that would be civilian and would have to be able to negotiate properly with everyone.
Regulations have been developed, areas of responsibility have been divided in order to "live as one family." But the "head" of this family and the only one responsible for decision—making was the flight director, a representative of the organization that creates the equipment. Because manned vehicles are a highly complex thing.
— But Eliseev laid the foundations for all this, right?
— Yes, he laid the foundations.
— You said that now he is not so actively involved in the work process. Do you communicate, call each other? Maybe you are consulting?
— I would not say that we are consulting with him a lot now, but, of course, we call back, communicate, discuss some points, but not very often, unfortunately.
— And when you became the flight director, who did you consult and consult more with — Ryumin or Eliseev?
— I did not consult with Ryumin, but just worked together — I became the flight director, and he became the first deputy general designer. He was followed by all the tests — not only those that we call flight and space, but also all ground-based and others. We talked with him every day and discussed something.
To a lesser extent, Yeliseyev [consulted]. His departure from the post of flight director was unexpected even for him. As he told me, at some point he was summoned to the Central Committee of the CPSU and made an offer that could not be refused — otherwise you would put the party card on the table. And he became the rector of the Moscow State Technical University. Then we met quite often — I donated my spacesuit to the Museum of the Moscow State Technical University, because I am also a Bauman — I participated in various festive events. He was going through this transition to a new job, he was not immediately accepted by the team, there was a period of adaptation. Alexey Stanislavovich, who is used to strict discipline, once told me: "Imagine — there is no one there at nine in the morning, and at one o'clock there is no one there."
— Why do you think projects were carried out faster in Yeliseyev's time compared to today?
— Then there were significantly fewer reports, including financial ones. Now everything is much stricter and more scrupulous. Not immediately, but gradually all these works were overgrown with a huge amount of bureaucratic stuff. Some of them precede the start of actual work — for example, calculation materials. And all this is formalized, legalized, coordinated between engineers and accounting structures — it is quite difficult and takes a lot of time, which was not the case before.
It was the 70th, 71st year. We had one station launched, and due to a misunderstanding between civilians and the military, it returned to the radio visibility zone on the next turn with zero fuel. And the stock on board was for a long time. They began to think about what to do. After all, the station is long-term, and here all the fuel is used up for a round. Then Konstantin Petrovich Feoktistov, our famous designer and cosmonaut, had an idea: let's refuel. At first, they looked at him as abnormal — then they only managed to create an airplane refueling system where there is only one fuel, kerosene, and here there are two fuel components, fuel and an oxidizer. At that time, we created a rather complex pneumatic hydraulic fuel intake circuit for liquid rocket engines and implemented it on the Progress cargo ship. The scheme is complex, it consists of a large number of various valves. And after successful tests on ground-based stands, we were able to realize the task in space. Of course, not immediately, there were a lot of difficulties during the tests, but the issue was resolved.
— Is a situation like the one that occurred with the loss of fuel at the station on the shoulders of the flight director?
— When the station flew, but there was no fuel, it was all a matter of the Main Operational Control Group.
— But the problem needs to be solved first of all by the flight director?
— Well, if it can be solved, then yes. The manager needs to figure out how to repair and get out of the situation. If there is no fuel, it cannot be repaired.
— How long did it take to create the refueling system that you were developing?
— I think three years later we already tested the first samples in flight. It was faster then. We did some things fast, and besides, we were all young. I've been sleeping every other night for five years. We had such a scheme: you work, go to tests at night, check how everything works, then work during the day, write a report, and the next night you sleep. And so it has been for several years, and it's not just me alone — there was a whole team of us like that.
— Is there no such thing now?
— No, there is no such thing. On the other hand, the people who are currently engaged in flight control of the station are working according to the schedule "a day in three".
— Vladimir Alekseevich, any job, any field of activity has its positive and negative features. What do you remember best from the period when Alexey Stanislavovich was the flight director? Did something stick in your memory?
— There was such a very dramatic episode in 1979 with Nikolai Rukavishnikov, when a camera burned out in the main engine of their Soyuz-33 spacecraft — he was flying with Bulgarian cosmonaut Georgy Ivanov at that time. For some time we did not understand whether it was possible to land the ship at all, because the main and backup engines were located next to each other, and since the main one burned out, the scale of damage was not clear to anyone.
At the same time, he spoke with the crew commander Nikolai Rukavishnikov in an absolutely calm voice, such restraint can only be envied. However, later, after landing, we had a good drink in the apartment of Nikolai Nikolaevich Rukavishnikov.
— Has such an experience helped you in life? Are you guided by your teachers?
— Of course, I try not to make noise either.
— And what would you wish Alexey Stanislavovich?
— Of course, I wish you good health, at this age it is mandatory. But I would also like him not to lose hope. I hope that there are still many interesting things and interesting ideas ahead. It's interesting to live when it's interesting. If you are not interested in working, then it is better not to go to work — the boredom is complete. That's what he taught us.
