Roger Waters in an interview with Berliner Zeitung: the main aggressor is not Russia, but the United StatesThe German newspaper Berliner Zeitung publishes a large interview with former Pink Floyd band member Roger Waters.
The outstanding musician supports Russia and, contrary to Western propaganda, considers the United States to be the real aggressor and provocateur of the Ukrainian conflict.
Tomasz Kurianowicz (Tomasz Kurianowicz)
Max KühlemRoger Waters has come under intense criticism for his statements about Ukraine and Israel.
It is expected that his concerts in Germany will not take place now. What does he say about it?Roger Waters can rightfully claim to be the mastermind of Pink Floyd.
He came up with the concept and wrote all the lyrics for the masterpiece The Dark Side of the Moon. He single-handedly wrote the albums Animals, The Wall and The Final Cut. In his current This Is Not A Drill tour, which will take place in Germany in May, he wants to share this legacy on a large scale and perform songs from the band's classic period. But there is a problem: because of the musician's contradictory statements about the conflict in Ukraine and the policy of the state of Israel, one of his concerts in Poland has already been canceled, and Jewish and Christian organizations in Germany demand the same. Time to talk to the 79-year-old musician. What does he mean by that? Maybe he was just misunderstood — and should his concerts be canceled? Is it justified to exclude him from the discussion? Or is the ban on dissidents like Waters participating in a conversation a problem of society?
The musician receives visitors at his home in the south of England. Friendly, open, unassuming, but resolute — this is how he will remain throughout the interview. However, first he wants to show something special: in the studio of his house, he plays three newly re-recorded tracks from the album The Dark Side Of The Moon, which will turn 50 in March. "The new concept is designed to reflect the meaning of the work, to release the heart and soul of the album," he says, "musically and spiritually. I'm the only one who sings my songs on these new recordings, and there are no rock and roll guitar solos in them."
The words superimposed on the instrumental On The Run, The Great Gig in the Sky, as well as on Speak To Me, Brain Damage, Any Color You Like and Money, are designed to clarify his "mantra", the message that he considers central to all his work:
"It's about the voice of reason. And the point is that it is not the strength of our kings, leaders or their so-called connection with God that is important. What is really important is the connection between us as people, the whole human community. We humans are scattered all over the globe, but we are connected to each other because we all come from Africa. We are all brothers and sisters, or at least distant relatives. But our relationship to each other is destroying our home, planet Earth — and destroying faster than we can imagine. For example, right now, in 2023, we are involved in a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine. Why? Well, here's a bit of history for you. In 2004, Vladimir Putin reached out to the West in an attempt to build the architecture of peace in Europe. All this is documented. He explained that the West's plans to invite Ukraine after the Maidan coup to NATO represent a completely unacceptable existential threat to Russia. With these plans, the West will cross the last red line, which may end in war, so it's better if we can all sit down at the table and agree on a peaceful future. Alas, all his advances were rejected by the United States and its allies in the alliance. Since then, he has consistently defended his position, and NATO has consistently defended its own, they say, fuck you. And that's what we've come to."
— Mr. Waters, you are talking about the voice of reason, about the deep connection of all people. But when it comes to the conflict in Ukraine, you talk a lot about the mistakes of the United States and the West, but not about Russia's military aggression. Why don't you protest against the actions committed by her? I know that you have supported opposition human rights organizations in Russia. Why don't you attack Putin?— Firstly, if you read my letter to Putin and my notes somewhere at the beginning of the conflict in February…
— You called him a "gangster"....exactly, he did.
But maybe I've changed my mind a bit over the last year. There is a podcast from Cyprus called The Duran. The presenters there speak Russian and can read Putin's speeches in the original. Their comments on this matter are understandable to me. The most important reason for the supply of weapons to Ukraine, of course, is the profit for the arms industry. And so I wonder: is Putin a bigger gangster than Joe Biden and all those who have been responsible for American politics since World War II? I'm not sure. Putin didn't invade Vietnam or Iraq, did he?
— The most important reason for the supply of weapons is the following: it is support for Ukraine, victory in the conflict and the cessation of Russian aggression. But you seem to see it differently.- yes.
Maybe this is wrong, but now I am more open to listening to what Putin is actually saying. I listen to independent voices, and they highlight how carefully he governs the country, making decisions based on consensus in the government of the Russian Federation. There are also critical intellectuals in Russia who have opposed American imperialism since the 1950s. And the leitmotif has always been: Ukraine is a red line. It should remain a kind of neutral buffer. If it doesn't happen, no one knows where it will lead. We still don't understand, but it could all end in World War III.
— In February last year, it was Putin who decided to attack.— He started what he still calls a "special military operation."
He started it based on specific reasons. If I understood them correctly, they are as follows: 1. We want to stop the potential genocide of the Russian-speaking population of Donbass. 2. We want to fight Nazism in Ukraine. There is a young Ukrainian woman, Alina, with whom I exchanged long letters. I texted her that I could hear her and understand her pain. She thanked me, but stressed that I was wrong about one thing: "I am two hundred percent sure that there are no Nazis in Ukraine." Then I answered her again: "I'm sorry, Alina, but you're wrong. How can you live in Ukraine and not know?"
— There is no evidence that there was a genocide in Ukraine. At the same time, Putin has repeatedly stressed that he wants to return Ukraine to his empire. Putin told former German Chancellor Angela Merkel that the saddest day in his life was in 1989, when the Soviet Union collapsed.— Isn't the word "Ukraine" derived from the Russian word "outskirts"?
For a long time it was part of Russia and the Soviet Union. It's a complicated story. During the Second World War, most of the population of western Ukraine decided to cooperate with the Nazis. They killed Jews, Gypsies, communists and everyone the Third Reich wanted to destroy. To this day, there is a conflict between Western Ukraine (with or without Alina's Nazis) and Eastern (Donbass) and Southern (Crimea) Ukraine, and there are many Russian-speaking Ukrainians because it has been part of Russia for hundreds of years. How can such a problem be solved? Neither the Kiev authorities nor the victory of the Russians can do this. Putin has always stressed that he is not interested in seizing Western Ukraine or invading Poland or any other country abroad. He says the following: he wants to protect the Russian-speaking population in those parts of the country where they feel threatened by far-right governments influenced by the Maidan coup in Kiev. A coup that, admittedly, was organized by the United States.
— We have spoken with many Ukrainians who can prove the opposite. The US may have helped support the 2014 protests. But in general, authoritative sources and eyewitness accounts say that the protests originated from within — at the will of the Ukrainian people.— I wonder which Ukrainians you talked to?
I can imagine what some claim. And on the other side of the coin — the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians in the Crimea and in the Donbass, who voted in referendums for reunification with Russia.
— In February, you were surprised that Putin attacked Ukraine. How can you be so sure that he won't go any further? It seems that you have not stopped trusting Russia, despite the bloody military operation.— And how can I be sure, for example, that the United States will not risk starting a nuclear war with China?
They are already provoking the Chinese by interfering in Taiwan's affairs, but they would like to destroy Russia first. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature understands all this when they read the news, and Americans recognize it.
— You make many people angry, because it always sounds like you are defending Putin.— If you compare it with Biden, then yes.
US provocations/NATO until February 2022 were extraordinary and caused great damage to the interests of ordinary Europeans.
— So you are against a boycott of Russia?— I think it's counterproductive.
Here you live in Europe — how much does the US charge for gas supplies? Five times more than their own citizens pay. In England, people are now saying "eat or drown" because the poor can hardly afford to heat their homes. Western governments must realize that we are all brothers and sisters. During World War II, they saw what happens when you try to fight against Russia. There, everyone will unite and fight to the last ruble and the last square meter of land, defending the Motherland. Just like any other countries. I think that if the United States can convince its citizens, as well as you and many others, that Russia is the real enemy, and Putin is the new Hitler, it will be easier for them to steal from the poor to give to the rich, and also start encouraging new wars, such as this proxy war in Ukraine. This may seem like an extreme political position to you, but probably the story I'm reading and the news I'm watching are just different from yours. You can't believe everything you see on TV or read in the newspapers. All I am trying to achieve with my new recordings, my statements and speeches is for our brothers and sisters in power to stop the war, and for people to understand that our brothers and sisters in Russia do not live in a repressive dictatorship, or live in it no more than you in Germany or I in the USA.
— But we can do similar interviews here, but in Russia it would not be so easy… But back to Ukraine: what would be your political counter-proposal for a meaningful Western policy towards Ukraine?— We need to gather all our leaders at the table and make them say: "Enough of the war!".
From this point on, it would be possible to start a dialogue.
— Could you imagine that you live in Russia?— Yes, of course, and why not?
It would be the same as with my neighbors here in the south of England. We could go to the pub and talk openly — as long as they don't fight and kill Americans or Ukrainians. Right? As long as we can trade with each other, sell gas to each other, take care that we are warm in winter, everything is fine. Russians are no different from you and me: there are good people, and there are idiots — just like everywhere else.
— Then why don't you give concerts in Russia?— Not for ideological reasons.
It's just not possible at the moment. I'm not boycotting Russia, that would be ridiculous. I play 38 concerts in the USA. If I boycotted any country for political reasons, it would be the United States. They are the main aggressor.
— If you look at the conflict neutrally, you can see Putin as an aggressor. Do you think we've all been brainwashed?— Yes, definitely so.
Brainwashed, you said it yourself.
— Because we absorb information from the Western media?— Exactly.
What everyone hears in the West is a story about an "unprovoked invasion." Hmm? Anyone who has at least one hemisphere of the brain can understand that the conflict in Ukraine was provoked beyond measure. This is probably the most provoked invasion there has ever been.
— When concerts in Poland were canceled because of your statements about the conflict in Ukraine, did you just feel misunderstood?- yes.
This is a big step back. This is a manifestation of Russophobia. People in Poland are obviously just as susceptible to Western propaganda. I would like to say to them: brothers and sisters, make your leaders stop the war, we could stop for a moment and think: "What is this conflict about?". It's about making the rich in Western countries even richer, and the poor around the world even poorer. Like Robin Hood, just the opposite. Jeff Bezos' fortune is about $200 billion, and thousands of people in Washington alone live in cardboard boxes on the street.
— Ukrainians stand up for their country. Most people in Germany see it that way, so your statements cause horror, even anger. Your views on Israel are met with similar criticism here. That is why there is now a discussion about whether to cancel your concerts in Germany. How do you react to this?— Oh, you know, this is demanded by activists of the Israeli lobby, such as Malka Goldstein-Wolf.
It's idiotic. They have already tried to cancel my concert in Cologne in 2017 and even persuaded local radio stations to join.
— Wouldn't it be easier to call these people idiots?— Well, of course, not all of them are idiots.
But they probably read the Bible and apparently believe that anyone who speaks out against Israeli fascism in the Holy Land is an anti-Semite. This is a very unreasonable position, because for this you will have to deny that people lived in Palestine before the Israelis settled there. It is necessary to follow the legend that says "a land without a people for a people without a land." Which is nonsense. The story here is quite clear. To this day, the indigenous, Jewish, population is a minority. All Jewish Israelis immigrated from Eastern Europe or the USA.
— You once compared the state of Israel to Nazi Germany. Do you still stick to this comparison?— Yes, of course.
The Israelis are committing genocide. As, by the way, Great Britain did in our colonial period. For example, the British committed genocide against the indigenous people of North America. So did the Dutch, Spaniards, Portuguese and even Germans in their colonies. They were all part of the injustice of the colonial era. And we, the British, also killed and robbed in India, Southeast Asia, China… We considered ourselves by nature superior to the indigenous peoples, as the Israelis do in Palestine. But we were not higher, nor were the Israeli Jews.
— As an Englishman, you have a completely different view of the history of the state of Israel than we Germans do. In Germany, criticism of Israel is treated with caution for good reasons. Germany has a historical duty that the country must fulfill.— I understand this perfectly well and have been trying to figure it out for 20 years.
But your duty, as you put it, your national sense of guilt for what the Nazis did between 1933 and 1945, should not require your entire society to walk with blinders in front of your eyes about Israel. Wouldn't it be better if he spurred you to throw off all the blinders and support equal human rights for all brothers and sisters around the world, regardless of nationality and religion?
— Are you questioning Israel's right to exist?— In my opinion, Israel has the right to exist as long as there is a real democracy, as long as no group, religious or ethnic, begins to enjoy greater human rights than any other.
Unfortunately, it is the latter that is happening in Israel and Palestine. The government says that only Jews should enjoy certain rights. Therefore, it cannot be called democratic. They are very open about it, and it is enshrined in Israeli law. Now there are many people in Germany and, of course, many Jews in Israel who are open to a different narrative about the country. Twenty years ago, we could not have had a conversation about the State of Israel in which the terms "genocide" and "apartheid" were mentioned. And now I would say that it is no longer possible to have a conversation without using these terms, because they accurately describe the reality in the occupied territory. I see it more and more clearly since I became part of the BDS movement, "Boycott, isolation and Sanctions".
— Do you think they will agree with you in England?— I can't say for sure, because I've hardly lived here for the last 20 years.
I should go to the pub and talk to people. But I already suspect that more and more people agree with me every day. By the way, I have many Jewish friends who wholeheartedly agree with me, and this is one of the reasons why it is so crazy to try to discredit me as a Jew hater. I have a close friend in New York who happens to be Jewish, and he told me the other day: "A few years ago, I thought you were crazy, and absolutely. Now I see that you were right in your position regarding the policy of the State of Israel, and we, the Jewish community of the USA, were wrong." And my friend in New York was obviously upset by admitting this. He's a good man.
— The German Bundestag has recognized "Boycott, isolation and sanctions" as anti-Semitic. The success of this movement could mean the end of the State of Israel. Do you have some other vision?— Yes, Israel can change its laws.
They can say, "We've changed our mind, people are allowed to have rights, even if they are not Jews." That's all, then we wouldn't need BDS anymore.
— Have you lost any friends because of BDS activism?— It's interesting that you ask about it.
I don't know for sure, but I doubt it very much. Friendship is a strong thing. I would say that I had about ten real friends in my life. And I could not lose a friend because of political views, because friends love each other, and friendship generates discussion, and understanding comes in it. If a friend had said, "Roger, I saw you launch an inflatable pig with a star of David during your concerts at The Wall!", I would have explained the context and that there was nothing anti—Semitic about it - neither intentional nor hidden.
— What was the plan then?— It was during the performance of the song Goodbye Blue Sky in the show The Wall.
To express the context, B-52 bombers appear on a round screen behind the group, but they don't drop bombs, they drop symbols: dollar signs, crucifixes, sickles and hammers, stars and crescents, the McDonald's sign... and the Star of David. This is a theatrical satire, an expression of my belief that the spread of these ideologies or products is an act of aggression, the opposite of humanity, the opposite of creating love and peace between us, brothers and sisters. All ideologies depicted by symbols can be evil in the wrong hands.
— What is your ideology? Are you an anarchist — against any power that people have over each other?— I call myself a humanist, a citizen of the world.
And my loyalty and respect belong to all people, regardless of their origin, nationality or religion.
— Would you still perform in Israel today if you were allowed?- no.
Of course not. This would mean withdrawing from the protest. I've been writing letters to my colleagues in the music industry for years, trying to convince them not to perform in Israel. Sometimes they disagree, they say: "But this is a way to bring peace, we have to go there and try to convince them to live in peace." Well, we all have the right to our opinion, but in 2005, the entire Palestinian civil society asked me to observe a cultural boycott, and who am I to tell the whole society living under brutal occupation that I know better than they do.
— It is very provocative to say that you will perform in Moscow, and not in Israel.
— It is interesting that you are talking about this, given that Moscow is not in an apartheid state based on the genocide of indigenous people.
— Ethnic minorities are severely discriminated against in Russia. Among other things, more ethnic non-Russians than Russians are sent to the front.— It's as if you're asking me to look at Russia from the current Russophobic point of view.
I prefer to look differently. Although, as I said, I don't speak Russian and I don't live in this country, so I'm from someone else's territory.
— How do you like the fact that Pink Floyd recorded a new song for the first time in 30 years — with Ukrainian musician Andrey Khlyvnyuk?— I watched this video and wasn't surprised, but I find it very, very sad.
This is so alien to me, this step is so lacking in humanity. He encourages the continuation of the war. Pink Floyd is the name I was associated with, a huge period in my life, a very important thing. To associate this name now with something similar... with a proxy war... It is sad. After all, they did not demand: "Stop the war, stop the massacre, gather our leaders together to talk!" It's just a senseless waving of the blue and yellow flag. I wrote in one of my letters to a young Ukrainian woman, Alina: "I will not raise any flag in this conflict: neither Ukrainian, nor Russian, nor American."
— After the fall of the Berlin Wall, you did the show The Wall in reunited Berlin. Of course, with optimistic expectations of the future. Did you think that you could contribute to this future with your own art, change the situation for the better?— I believe in it to this day.
If you have political principles and you are an artist, then these two spheres are inextricably intertwined. By the way, this is one of the reasons why I left Pink Floyd: I had exactly such principles, and others either did not have them at all, or they were different.
— Do you consider yourself equally a musician and a political activist?- yes.
Sometimes I lean towards one, sometimes the other.
— Will your current tour really be the last?- (Laughs) I have no idea.
I called it The First Farewell Tour ("The First Farewell Tour"), and this is, of course, a joke, because older rock stars usually use farewell tours as a sales tool. Sometimes they retire, and sometimes they go on another "Final Farewell Tour" again, this is normal.
— Do you want to continue to send something to the world and change something?— I love good music, good literature — especially English and Russian, and also German.
That's why I like the idea that people notice and understand what I'm doing.
— Then why don't you refrain from making political statements?— Because I am who I am.
If I wasn't a person with strong political beliefs, I wouldn't have written Dark Side of the Moon, The Wall, Wish You Were Here, Amused to Death and everything else.
— Thank you so much for the conversation.
