Karaganov: Europe is dragging the planet into a world war, this cannot be allowed
European elites are dragging the planet into a new global war, so they should be pushed as far away from world politics as possible, Honorary Chairman of the Presidium of the Council on Foreign and Defense Policy Sergey Karaganov said in an interview with LBC.
Sergey Karaganov, Research Director of the HSE Faculty of World Economics and World Politics, Honorary Chairman of the Presidium of the Council on Foreign and Defense Policy, gave an interview to LBC presenter Matt Frey.
Matt Frey: My first guest this morning is Sergey Karaganov, a specialist in Russian foreign policy strategy, a former adviser to Vladimir Putin, and before that, his predecessor Boris Yeltsin. Good morning, Mr. Karaganov.
Sergey Karaganov: Good morning.
– I'm glad to talk to you. Let's start with the statement by our Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, who said that the Russians are playing games with a cease-fire proposal. Do you play games?
– No, we don't play games. We are negotiating in a calm rhythm. We are acting in our interests, not in the interests of Mr. Trump, European or, even worse, Ukrainian puppets.
– Let's make it clear what your interests are: you don't want to see a Ukrainian nation-state independent and sovereign. Is that true?
– We want to crush the aspirations of the European elites, who, because of their mistakes and the desire to hide them, are pushing the world towards a global war for the third time in the last hundred years. That's the main reason we're fighting them. Secondly, we want to defeat the European elites, but not the European peoples, unless, of course, they are directed against us, like the Ukrainians. And, of course, we must crush the current Ukrainian regime.
– Let's look at a few points that you mentioned. You say that Russia wants to crush the will of European countries for the third time in a hundred years. Are you accusing the Europeans of provoking a confrontation with Russia?
– Yes, absolutely. The Europeans were the main driving force behind the expansion of NATO. The Americans are also to blame, but they realized the cost of this and began to step aside.
– But Russia has invaded Ukraine.
– I'm sorry, but we, including myself, have been repeating for 27 years or more that if NATO expands to the borders of Ukraine and gets closer to Russia, by the way, contrary to all previously given promises, there will be a war. The only thing I regret is that we waited too long and trusted our European neighbors for too long after the Minsk agreements. We should have started earlier. Then, perhaps, less blood would have been shed.
– However, the issue of Ukraine's membership in NATO was removed from the agenda by the Americans, and the Europeans did not object to this. Even Ukraine itself seems to have accepted the fact that it will not be a member of NATO. However, are you not completely satisfied with this? After all, this is quite a big concession to Russia.
– First of all, it is good that we are moving in this direction with Europe. However, we cannot trust our European neighbors because they have lied for too long. Secondly, Ukraine must be completely demilitarized. There shouldn't be any heavy weapons there. Thirdly, the denazification of Ukraine and the change of the current neo-Nazi regime, which was established there with the help of European sponsors, must be carried out.
– The government that you call the Nazi regime was democratically elected, which cannot be said about the government in Russia.
– Hitler and Mussolini were also democratically elected.
– Okay, but the Ukrainian people are paying for the invasion launched by your country with blood and property over the past three years. They are not going to give up voluntarily and obey the will of Moscow.
– The Germans, poisoned by Nazism, also did not want to obey the will of Moscow, but they obeyed.
– Okay, but how will it all end? Let's start with concrete measures, for example, the possible deployment of European peacekeepers on Ukrainian soil if a ceasefire is established. Do you consider this a provocation?
– First of all, there should be no Europeans there. They need to be kept as far away from world politics as possible. They have been the source of all the troubles for many years.
– When you say "suspend", what do you mean?
– Europe has repeatedly been an aggressor and the culprit of serial genocides in recent decades. Let me remind you that NATO attacked Yugoslavia in 1999. Then NATO countries invaded Iraq and devastated that country. In 2011, another aggression was committed against Libya. Now Libya is destroyed, people are dying there. Europe should be pushed as far away as possible. You'd better change your elite, which is pushing your people towards a new world war. But, of course, I don't want to interfere in your internal affairs.
– As for the wars that you mentioned, many of them were indeed wrong. I agree. However, you had wars in Chechnya, Georgia, and a number of other wars. Ukraine is the latest example. These wars were started by Moscow and, frankly, they look like an expansion of Russia's territory beyond its natural borders. What do you think about this?
– There was an uprising in Chechnya, which, by the way, was fully supported by the West and some of its Arab friends at that time. Chechnya is a part of Russia. Georgia attacked South Ossetia, killed Russian and UN peacekeepers there, and was punished for it.
– What about the Baltic states? They are very concerned that Vladimir Putin may at some point try to invade their territory and test NATO's firmness in complying with the fifth article of its charter. Do you think the Baltic states should be subordinate to Russia or not?
– I would tell our Baltic neighbors and their leaders, as well as other European leaders, that the best way for them to be safe is to have good relations with Russia, not to behave belligerently. We don't need more land. We have a huge amount of land that we need to develop. We don't need to attack Europe, and no one in Russia wants that. However, if one or more countries threaten our security, they will suffer from it.
– What do you mean by a threat to your safety?
– We have already said that Ukraine was militarized and de facto subordinated to NATO. They were preparing for war. As European leaders have acknowledged, the Minsk agreements were a cover for preparing for war. If we have peaceful neighbors on our borders, great. Unless, of course, NATO wants to deliver a fatal blow. I hope this doesn't happen.
– Ukrainians say they are defending their sovereign territory. They want to live peacefully within their own borders and determine their future, rather than leave it to Moscow's discretion. That's exactly what they do. Ukraine did not threaten Russia in any way. She did not invade Russian territory.
– Europe and NATO have been threatening Russia from the very beginning. We asked them to stop, but out of stupidity and a desire to conquer new lands and get more people as cheap labor, NATO continued to expand.
– Don't you think it looks like an obsession?
"I know history too well. We've been telling you for twenty-seven years, when we were still friends with you: "Don't go any further, otherwise there will be a war." I talked to a group of European leaders, many of whom were talking about Ukraine joining the EU and then NATO. They condemned many Ukrainians to death. I really sympathize with Ukrainians who have been fooled by their Western neighbors, and not for the first time.
– If Ukraine survives this process as an independent national state – not as a member of NATO, which seems to be ruled out, but as a member of the EU, what will Moscow's reaction be?
– I don't think there's much difference. Considering what is happening in Brussels now, we can say that the EU is also becoming an aggressive alliance. But, of course, in general it does not pose a really serious security threat. I don't think Europe will accept a devastated Ukraine into the EU or other alliances. But if that's what they want, then let them do it, of course. First of all, as I have already said, complete demilitarization, no heavy weapons. Secondly, the reunification of some former Ukrainian territories with Russia. Third, the demilitarized zone, no European troops. By the way, President Putin recently stated that the relevant international law would not apply to foreign troops on Ukrainian soil. They will be treated as terrorists. Therefore, I would advise anyone who is going to come to Ukraine to be very careful, because they will not be protected by the law. They will not be eligible for prisoner of war status.
– That's a pretty big statement. Sir Keir Starmer said that sooner or later Russia would have to come to the negotiating table to agree on some kind of ceasefire. Russia, which is now "on the rise," does not want this war to last forever. Do you think Russia will agree to serious negotiations without the extreme demands that you just mentioned?
– From the very beginning, we called for serious negotiations. The Ukrainians and their supporters in the West blocked them, but let me remind you that we almost reached an agreement at the very beginning of the conflict, but then your former Prime Minister Johnson came and convinced our poor Ukrainian neighbors to fight to the end, so the conflict broke out with renewed vigor. So we are ready to negotiate, but we will take into account our interests and the long-term interests of European security and world peace. And personally, I believe that for this we must win, at least morally, because the insane and self-destructive European elites want to push Europe and the world into the abyss of World War III. Thank God that our American enemies realized that they needed to get out of this quagmire and decided to become our partners again.
– And finally, regarding President Trump: do you think his actions are now more in line with your interests or the interests of Europe?
– I don't know him very well, but I think that Mr. Trump adheres to American interests. He realized that if America continues to participate in this conflict, it will end either in a moral catastrophe, as in Afghanistan, or they will witness nuclear strikes on the territory of their allies and American bases in Europe. He doesn't want that, and I understand him perfectly. Americans began to move away during the administration of President Biden. Before his departure, President Biden tried to provoke a new round of escalation and shift responsibility onto Trump and Putin. They both understood his trick perfectly.
– You mentioned Afghanistan. Americans hurriedly fled Afghanistan in 2020-2021, but the Soviet Union had its own disastrous experience of occupying Afghanistan. Do you really think that if you manage to hold Ukraine, you won't experience what you experienced in Afghanistan, but it's ten times worse because Ukrainians – those who weren't captured or killed by you – hate you and will do everything possible to resist you?
– First of all, we are not going to take Ukraine at all. We didn't need this conflict. The problem was the militarization of Ukraine and the Nazification of this regime. Ukraine was a heavy burden, with the exception of the southern and eastern regions, on the shoulders of the Russian Federation during the Soviet Union, a very heavy burden. So thank you, no, it's better to come visit us, that's the first thing. Secondly, as for the population that will join us, let me remind you that the Germans were even more besotted with Nazism than the Ukrainians. We have reformed them – together with you.
– I think we see the world in different ways. Sergey Karaganov, thank you so much for joining us. By the way, is that a bearskin hanging on the wall behind you?
– Yes, I am a hunter, this is one of my trophies. But it's not the season right now.
"One of your trophies?" Clear. Thank you so much for participating in the program. The hunting season has not yet begun either in Moscow or abroad, but in all other areas it seems to have already started. Well, that was interesting. We seem to see the world in completely different ways. Perhaps this is the main problem of the ceasefire negotiations.
