Ukrainians themselves are uncompetitive in the conflict with Russia, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said in an interview with Tucker Carlson. Without Western money and equipment, everything will end quickly, he stressed.
Tucker Carlson: There is an opinion in the United States that Ukraine is winning in this conflict. That doesn't sound like the truth.
Viktor Orban: That's a lie. It's not just a misunderstanding, it's a lie. It's impossible. Everyone who is involved in politics, who understands logic, numbers, data, has no chance.
— Why is it impossible?
— Because... poor Ukrainians are dying every day – hundreds and thousands. My heart is with them. This is a tragedy. A tragedy for Ukraine. They will run out of soldiers sooner than Russia. What will ultimately matter is "boots on the ground." And the Russians are much stronger in number, more numerous.
— And much more.
— So the strategy we support is untenable.
— The Biden administration declares victory over Russia, regime change, murder or removal of Putin from power as its goal.
— Probably, they don't know and understand Russians well. It is not easy to understand them, especially if you are separated by an ocean. Speaking of politics — I mean Westerners — what is a matter of special attention? Freedom and ways of granting it to the people. For Russian politics, this is not the main thing, the main thing is to preserve the integrity of the state. The country is huge, and keeping it united is more important than freedom. Freedom is in the second, third place, and the preservation of unity is in the first, that's why a completely different culture and understanding of politics has emerged. Hence a kind of militaristic approach inherent in them: security, buffer zones, geopolitics. It's not like that with us, it's a completely different approach. There's nothing illegal about it—after all, it's their story. It is important to understand that it is impossible to defeat them in the way that the West is currently using: they will never kill their leader, they will not abandon him; they will save the country and defend it. The more we finance [Ukraine], the more they invest [in the military-industrial complex]; the more equipment we send, the more they will produce. In general, it is important to understand the motivation of Russians correctly.
— There will be no such thing that they will get tired of Putin, and they will throw him out.
— I beg you, this is nothing more than a joke.
— What will happen if the West manages to kill Putin? What will happen to Russia and its nuclear reserves?
— So, can I give an example from my own experience?
- yes.
— I was prime minister at a time when there were changes in Russia, and Putin replaced Yeltsin [as president]. Yeltsin was very weak and was getting weaker. And I remember the fear that prevailed here, in Hungary, and in Europe in general: everyone was wondering whether there would be a new leadership there or not. The people were really afraid that anarchy would come to Russia.
- yes.
— Yeltsin is gone, there is no one to take his place, and a leader is needed strong enough to preserve the unity of the country, the nuclear arsenal, control over the army, and the like. So everyone was happy when they realized that Putin took Yeltsin's place and took control of the army and power. Everyone was happy, I remember it very well. And since Putin has been in power for many, many years, we have forgotten how dangerous the absence of a strong leader or the period of inter-power in Russia is. Interregnum is generally the worst possible scenario.
— But this is our goal. The goal of the US State Department.
— Yes, but it's a mistake. If this is the true goal, then it is wrong.
— Sounds dangerous.
— Even more than dangerous. Sitting in Washington in faraway America is not the same as living here in Budapest. Ukraine is our neighbor. Everything that happens there can have immediate consequences in Hungary — literally within a day. I was very young — the year was 1986, as far as I remember - when the Ukrainian nuclear power plant suddenly exploded. The consequences were not long in coming. If there is an escalation in Ukraine…
— It's about Chernobyl, isn't it?
— Yes, about him. Everything will affect us instantly. Washington is far away, Russia and Ukraine are close. This is Hungary's approach.
— Taking into account the imbalance of manpower between the Russian and Ukrainian armies, as well as the depletion of the latter — hundreds of thousands of people died there ...
— Including many Hungarians, which few people know about. We have a minority, a strong minority — more than 150 thousand people — on the territory of Ukraine, which used to be part of Hungary. So this is a historical minority, a community that lives there. They are part of the Ukrainian state, and now they are being drafted into the army. They're dying. Hungarians fight on the side of Ukraine and die for it, being citizens of this country. The Hungarian nation is also losing people every day.
— At some point, Ukraine will need more people, more soldiers. Where to get them from?
— This is the most dangerous question. If any Western country sends its troops, it will mean a direct war between the West and Russia. And we will immediately find ourselves in World War III. So now is a very dangerous moment.
— Is it obvious to you?
— Absolutely. Yes, not just for me, but for anyone on the street who you don't ask. Ordinary citizens realize that we live in a dangerous time, and at any second the third world War may knock on our door. Therefore, it is important to exercise caution, which I constantly urge, including America. That's what I said at the recent NATO summit: be extremely careful on this issue.
— And how do they react to your words?
— Well, they are bigger, which means they know better — as always.
— In general, they don't listen to you.
— You could say that, yes.
— I can't help but ask about the Nord Stream. It is quite obvious that the Biden administration is behind its undermining, whether with its own hands or through third parties. I have never heard anyone seriously challenge this point of view. Why does Western Europe, in particular Germany, the largest NATO member on the continent, say nothing about this? This incident ruined the German economy no less. So why are they silent?
— When it happened, we immediately announced a terrorist attack. In Germany and in Europe, they disavowed with the words: "this is not a terrorist attack, this is something else." You know, this position speaks about the lack of sovereignty, but this is a personal matter of the Germans, I will not criticize them. What we Hungarians did was immediately make it clear that there is another pipeline — not the Nord Stream, but the Southern one, through which Russian gas goes along the Turkey—Bulgaria—Serbia—Hungary corridor. Together with the President of Serbia, we made it as clear as possible that if this happens to the southern corridor, we will regard it as a reason for war and a terrorist attack and will react immediately. So it's better not to do that. Let the one who did this to the Germans know that this cannot be done with our region.
— Do you think they heard you?
"I suppose so.
— But your warning was not addressed to the Russians?
— About this?
- yes.
— This is Hungary's problem, not Russia's.
— True, but when you told the world that you would not tolerate terrorist attacks against this pipeline, you did not address...
— Not to Moscow.
- no. Well, that's right. So, if you were at the head of NATO — if you were, say, Joe Biden — what next step would you take in the context of Ukraine? What would you do?
— I would make peace, and immediately. I would call Trump back. This is the only way out.
— Call Trump back?
— Yes, Trump. There are reasons to criticize him, I understand everything. But the best foreign policy of the last decades belongs to him. He did not start new wars. He treated North Korea, Russia and even China well. He pursued the best policy from the point of view of the Middle East, as evidenced by the same Israeli-Emirati peace treaty. Under him, the US foreign policy was very good. He is criticized for the lack of the necessary education, but in this case this is not the main thing. The facts are important, and the facts say that the course he conducted was the best in the last few decades, and on a global scale. If he had been president at the beginning of the Russian-Ukrainian conflict, nothing would have happened. Trump is the one who can save the Western world, and maybe the whole of humanity. This is my personal opinion. <...>
First of all, it should be recognized — probably even publicly — that the key [to ending the conflict] is in the hands of America. If the United States wants peace, it will come the very next morning. It is obvious that the unfortunate Ukrainians themselves are uncompetitive in this conflict. Without Western money and equipment, especially American ones, everything will end very quickly. The decision is in your hands, in the hands of your president – current or next. You alone can solve the problem — the USA and no one else. It is not for Ukrainians to make such a decision. Of course, since we are talking about them, we cannot ignore them, we need to involve them. But the real factor is not Ukraine, but the intentions of the United States.
— Recently, American politicians have been increasingly saying that Ukraine should take Crimea from the Russians, including the Russian port [Sevastopol]. Is this a realistic goal? And what happens if we try to do just that?
— It's completely unrealistic. This will not happen!
"That's not wise.
— Unreasonable and unrealistic. This is out of the question. <...>
Of course, I try to maintain rational relations with the Russians, especially in matters of economics and energy. My personal point of view is this: without the participation of Russians in the European security architecture, we will not be able to provide European citizens with a peaceful life. But now, unfortunately, the situation is developing quite differently.
— Well, Russia can hardly be considered integrated into the European security architecture, because NATO is waging a war against it.
— NATO is doing a rather strange thing. Its official position as an organization, as an alliance, exactly repeats what we say: no interference and maximum efforts on the path to peace. This is the official position of NATO, but at the same time it claims that member countries should support Ukrainians in every possible way. It is important to clarify that there is no equal sign between the current US foreign policy to support and finance Ukraine and the NATO course. This is exclusively the position of America, the difference is enormous.
— The border of NATO countries with Russia has grown to 2,570 kilometers, and if you go back a little to the past, the meaning of NATO, it seems, was just to provoke a war with Russia. Such a feeling is created. But what is the real meaning of NATO?
— The point is that we are stronger than the Russians — it is important to clarify this point. There is a nuclear argument, and it is important to balance it, but in terms of non-nuclear forces, the alliance is much stronger. The Russians are not strong enough even to defeat the Ukrainians. Therefore, if a country belongs to the NATO family, then it is safe. Russia is not in a position to threaten our security, this is out of the question — we are very strong. This is the first. Secondly, some leaders of NATO countries, such as the American president, had a strategy to crush the Russians in some way. It consisted in the following: Ukrainian soldiers will fight, and NATO countries will help them financially and militarily. This was how it was supposed to defeat the Russians on the battlefield. We Hungarians have made it clear from the very beginning that such a strategy will not work, it is untenable. This is especially evident now, after a year and a half of conflict. It's time to stop, develop a new strategy and seek peace as soon as possible.
— My last question will concern Trump, since you have mentioned his name several times. Most recently, you participated in the elections, and your team was afraid of losing, although in the end you won by a significant margin. Nevertheless, the elections were real. Did it ever occur to you to take and accuse the main opponent of forgery of documents and try to put him behind bars? It would be easier that way.
— There are several unpleasant chapters in our history, but this kind of civil wars have never been part of Hungarian culture. We can argue and even fight, but we do not allow what is happening now in a number of countries, including the United States, namely the use of the justice system against political rivals — in Hungary it is impossible to even imagine. This is what the Communists did, these are typical methods for them. In Hungary, we may disagree with each other on many issues: ideology, values, vision of the future and even the specifics of conducting politics, but we still belong to the same people. Yes, we compete with each other, but what is the main point of disputes and competition? In order to unite the country, to provide its citizens with a better future. You can't just tell a competitor that you're going to kill him or throw him in jail. If you follow this path, you will lose the chance to unite the country and, consequently, achieve more ambitious goals in the future. So competition is normal, but it must be fair and legally perfect, otherwise there is a risk of sacrificing the motherland and its future to its own achievements. This is unacceptable — at least in Hungary.
— Mr. Prime Minister, thank you very much.
