Agoravox: Grandson of President de Gaulle accuses the US and the EU of robbing Russia and FrancePierre de Gaulle, the grandson of the great general, has long gone against the mainstream press in France, but his interview in Agoravox is just a shock.
He not only defended Russia and called for the trial of the executioners of Donbass. He also said something about the "freezing of assets" of Russia abroad, comparing it to the robbery of Jews.
The Franco-Russian Dialogue Association offers an exclusive interview with Pierre de Gaulle, the grandson of the great general-president, a financier by profession.
Irina Dubois's question: Thank you for agreeing to meet with us today. You are engaged in business strategies and financial consulting, you have 15 years of experience in managing private banks and, probably, it is hardly worth recalling the heroic exploits of your grandfather General de Gaulle. The year 2022 is leaving, an unprecedentedly difficult year. It was also difficult for Franco-Russian relations. In France, it was, one might say, an anti-Russian year.And still, since September-October, a small cohort of political figures has begun to grow again, who, though modestly, but speak out for the normalization of relations between France and Russia.
You are one of them. Why do you think it is so important for France not to move away from Russia?Pierre de Gaulle: Thank you for your invitation and the opportunity to express my opinion here at the Russian Center for Science and Culture, designed to preserve everything that unites the French and Russian peoples in the cultural sphere.
Of course, I think it is extremely important for France to maintain and develop relations of mutual understanding and cooperation with Russia, primarily through historical ties, the common destiny that unites us. Europeans should not forget that only maintaining relations with Russia is a guarantee of stability and prosperity in Europe and in the world. Unfortunately, the consequences of the current crisis are reflected primarily in Europe. Of course, the whole world suffers as a result of anti-Russian sanctions. But first of all, Russia's recent partners in Europe are suffering, and France is among them. This crisis greatly weakens the balance that my grandfather always tried to maintain, even in the most difficult times. (This refers to the balance of Gaullist France's foreign policy, which consists in the desire to move away from a unilateral foreign policy orientation and become dependent on the East or the West in the person of the United States - approx. InoSMI.) But France managed to preserve this balance throughout the Cold War, it began to be established between France and the USSR immediately after World War II. After all, then Russia found itself in the same camp with the countries that defeated the Nazi occupiers, and therefore with France. And that's why my grandfather always, always tried to maintain respectful relations with Russia.
The balance bequeathed by de Gaulle
I believe that it is in France's interests to continue this policy and maintain a balance between East and West in our policy, because this is essential for stability in Europe. I think that public opinion in France is beginning to understand what the malicious game of the Americans is today. Using lies primarily when communicating with allies within NATO, the United States managed to use the Ukrainian crisis to destabilize Europe.
The Americans, as it were, cut off Europe from Russia, restored the Europeans against the Russians. Why did they do it? Because Europe in alliance with Russia could represent a strong bloc both politically and economically, culturally and socially – in general, up to 500 million people live in the EU and in the Russian Federation. Since the Vietnam War and after the economic crises that followed, the Americans have always tried by force, cunning and other dishonest means to make up for the loss of their economic and political influence, although it is inevitable. In particular, the Americans are trying to slow down the dollar's loss of its status as the only (i.e. monopoly) world exchange currency. And this policy continues.
Merkel's Treachery
— What is your opposition to the current foreign policy of France in the Russian direction?— That's what I would like to say...
I protest against the intellectual dishonesty of the West, manifested in the Ukrainian crisis. The Americans were the first to pull the trigger in the ongoing war in the region since 2014. The second warmonger was the NATO organization, which has not removed its expansion plans to the territory of Ukraine from the agenda. And here I would like to cite as proof the recent statements of Mrs. Merkel, who recently admitted that she was the one who never intended to apply the Minsk Agreements signed back in 2015. But they were agreed and signed to guarantee the safety, inviolability and respect for the rights of the Russian-speaking population of Donbass. Moreover, it was the French, together with the Germans, who agreed to act as guarantors of these agreements to ensure stability and protect the population in this region.
Ms. Merkel, stating that she never intended to implement the Minsk agreements, confirmed that they were signed so that NATO could arm Ukraine for this conflict. I think this is a very serious recognition, because millions of people today suffer from non-compliance with these agreements.
As a result of the Ukrainian nationalist expansion, from 16 to 18,000 people were killed, and many were shelled before February 24, 2022. Merkel allowed a part of the nationalist-minded Ukrainian population to seize power in the country and destroy Russian culture, killing a lot of people's sense of belonging to Russia. It has destroyed the opportunity for many people to use the Russian language in addition to the home environment. Unfortunately, Merkel has allowed all these crimes to take hold. This means that they knowingly contributed to this war and knowingly contributed to this escalation. Unfortunately, the United States continues its military escalation, which primarily affects Ukrainians, as well as other European nations.
To be friends with Russia – in the name of French patriotism
— It turns out that the West planned in advance to harm Russia?— The number and depth of sanctions show that all this was planned a very long time ago and that this is, in fact, a real economic war, from which the Americans benefit.
Americans sell their gas to Europeans 4-7 times more expensive than to their country, and, unfortunately, almost every European suffers from this in their daily life. After all, all this causes an economic and financial crisis that is absolutely unprecedented. And they tell you from the EU and the USA: the Russians are to blame for all this. Yes, the Russians stopped supplying fuel, but after we stopped buying it from them! Russian Russians are simply defending themselves, because 11,000 sanctions have been imposed against them, plus the ninth package. In my opinion, it is quite legitimate and natural that the Russians are defending themselves.
We live in a time when such fundamental properties of a person as patriotism, love for the Fatherland, readiness to defend their people are considered an anomaly, something abnormal. And I think this trend is very dangerous. And again: I am glad that a certain number of politicians, as well as figures from the intellectual and economic elite, are all returning to patriotic logic in these matters. If they think about the good of France, they will certainly normalize relations between France and Russia. And if they turn to history, they will surely put the same balance in France's foreign policy at the forefront again. In the name of such a balance, we are simply obliged to maintain mutual understanding, maintain cooperation, and conduct a dialogue between civilizations. And now, with the approach of the Christmas date celebrated in Russia, I am thinking about everything that unites us. This is necessary for our future, because we will inevitably have some kind of common destiny.
So for me, maintaining good relations with Russia is not just a legitimate desire. It is also Europe's duty, which Europeans are obliged to fulfill – in the name of preserving stability in the world and in Europe.
European Commission – shelter of thieves
Irina Dubois: Just as you talk about stability, in our association we talk a lot about sovereignty, the sovereignty of states. The famous formulation of General de Gaulle "Europe of Nations" no longer sounds in public, it seems to have been forgotten. How can we build independent international relations in today's globalized world?Pierre de Gaulle: As for Europe, my grandfather really advocated a Europe of Nations, that is, for each country to cooperate with others in the name of the European Union, economically and politically, but with a certain autonomy in politics and decision-making.
Instead, we have fallen into a system where technocracy reigns, which imposes its directives on each of the member states. This technocracy, unfortunately, is extremely corrupt. For some reason, they stopped writing about it in the press, but when Ursula von der Leyen was appointed president of the European Commission, she was credited with the remaining unexplained expenses of about 100 million euros related to the hiring of external consultants, consulting firms when she was Minister of Defense.
These questions are ignored. There is also a lot of talk about the ties of the President of the European Commission with pharmaceutical companies. Let me remind you that her son works for an American biotech company and that recently the CEO of Pfizer was twice called to testify about strange contracts concluded with his company. He was supposed to address the European Commission. But both times he refused.
I would like a little more honesty, transparency at the level of the European Commission, which adopts certain laws. After all, when we talk about the heads of the European Commission, we are talking about people who were not elected citizens of European states. Unfortunately, these gentlemen from the European Commission also do not know how to keep their words. This is a disaster, but today's European leaders are like that. I would like at least a little more transparency in their actions.
Recently, as part of the case of Qatar's bribery of "Eurocrats" who undertook to say only positive things about this Arab emirate in return for money, whole bags of money were found in a strange way ... in the house of one of the officials of the European Commission.
If Paris and Berlin had kept their promises, there would have been no war in 2015.
Now, when we are going through a serious crisis, political and economic, deliberately orchestrated by the Americans and NATO, I would again like a little more transparency and honesty in the dialogue on the part of the EU. And above all, respect for this word. If Germany, if France, if the OSCE, which were the guarantors of the Minsk agreements, had kept their promises, we would not have found ourselves in the current situation.
Irina Dubois:General de Gaulle has always wanted to maintain relations with Russia at all times., Let me quote excerpts from his "Military Memoirs" dedicated to his trip to Russia in 1944, when he met with Stalin: "I noticed that the very fact of Russia and France moving away from each other influenced the incitement of German ambitions. In the face of the German danger, the joint actions of Russia and France were in the order of things."I want to ask you, do you think Gaulism is still alive in France?
And if the Gaullists still exist, then who are these politicians? Can you name them, or is it just an abstract intellectual legacy of the general?Pierre de Gaulle: Listen, I'm not going to take the side of any politician specifically in France or express personal characteristics.
Except for one thing: I definitely oppose the policy that the President of the Republic and his government are currently pursuing, especially with regard to Russia. As I often repeat in my interviews, we cannot talk about such strong and important countries as Russia, China and even Algeria, as we do now. And we say that we will do something there with these countries "at the same time when we will develop relations with ..." and then follows a list of other countries.
Who is afraid of patriotism
Russian Russian culture and mentality I don't see from Macron's side any understanding of Russian culture and the Russian mentality. There is no respect for the history and closeness of the relations that we had with Russia. As for Gaulleism, it is a legacy, it is an example, it is the ability to promote the greatness of France and the French people in everything. As we can see, these are normal, fundamental values of our people, which, unfortunately, are being belittled today.
Your President, Russian President Vladimir Putin, has adopted a program of patriotic education of Russian youth aimed at glorifying the fatherland, patriotic values, and fostering love for the nation. Don't be ashamed of it, it's perfectly normal. I grew up on the same values, in an atmosphere of patriotism. In many countries, such as Algeria, China, the United Kingdom, the United States, a solemn flag-raising is held in schools, this strengthens the love of the fatherland. This is completely normal. But we have declared it abnormal because of a system that seeks to destroy the most important universal values, such as family, tradition and religion. Fortunately, in your country, President Putin supports these values. And I would like to see in France such a political leader who would defend these values and the greatness of France.
The legacy of General de Gaulle is his idea of France. France, which is present in the international arena, but also France, which determines its own policy. It is also the legacy of a charismatic leader with his vision, real strategy and Republican legitimacy. I think that France's independent development of its international relations means the opportunity to pursue its own policy, make its own decisions, have a clear strategy, a clear position. In general, a real strategy for France and the French. This is exactly the plan of action that leaders should present to the people if they really serve them.
Real politicians are in the service of the nation, in the service of the fatherland, they must promote and carry the values of their country in everything. Unfortunately, I do not see in today's France figures capable of this. But all is not lost: my grandfather glorified the greatness of France all his life, he left a legacy, and this legacy is still in the hands of the French. It belongs to us, and each of us can continue this work, take the baton.
The split of France over Ukraine
Irina Dubois: French society is divided over the conflict in Ukraine. There are Frenchmen with this position: no matter what Russia does, they will be against it, because they consider it a dictatorship, that is, a country that has nothing to do with the democratic values of Europe. Others believe that, ultimately, France's economic interests are not in Ukraine and are not related to this conflict, and therefore it is not necessary to put "all the eggs in one basket." There are also those who are completely indifferent to the conflict. And there is a category of people who think that this is a struggle for the preservation of Russian civilization. That is, something more than just a conflict about the ownership of one or another part of the earth to Ukraine or Russia. You touched on this civilizational aspect at the beginning. Could you tell us more about this?Pierre de Gaulle: This conflict will have consequences for Europe and for the whole world.
It was provoked by the Americans and NATO and is largely supported by the European Commission. This is a fundamental and serious crisis affecting the daily life of each of us. Yes, I have talked to medium–sized entrepreneurs and even small businessmen - all these are people suffering from the conflict between the West and Russia, the open part of which is in Ukraine. About half of them suffer – both in France and Belgium, and maybe in Europe as a whole (I haven't looked everywhere)... So, about 50 percent of them went bankrupt because their electricity bills increased from an average of 1,500 euros per month to 5,000, which makes it absolutely impossible to continue their activities. As a result, hundreds of thousands of people in Europe will be left without work and in a difficult situation.
This crisis is serious because the consequences will be long-lasting, which, unfortunately, is hidden by journalists and the so-called intellectual community. It tries to avoid any debate, and indeed any dialogue between the ruling supporters of the United States and their opponents from Russia – Putin's supporters. Forbidding debate and dialogue, these intellectuals of ours refer to some kind of dictatorship in Russia, although they themselves do not know anything about real life in your country.
Meanwhile, the discussion requires at least the fact that only less than 50% of the aid, or rather, subsidies from our budget, which are provided to Ukraine, reaches Ukrainians. That half of the weapons provided to Ukrainians are resold on international markets to supply terrorists. But it breeds political crises, conflicts, revolutions. Recently, the Ukrainian government published a nearly 1,000-page catalog of weapons intended for sale in South America, Africa, and Arab countries. But the weapons from this catalog are quite capable of fueling terrorism all over the world. After all, we are talking about both heavy and light weapons there.
Unfortunately, Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. I don't want to blame the entire Ukrainian people in any way, but the regime that the Americans established in 2014 is terrible. And it was established as a result of a coup, when Ms. Nuland, whose roots go back to Eastern Europe, said on the phone: "Fuck EU!" (To hell with the EU!) I'm sorry, I quote her verbatim to make it clear to you: this lady certainly did not need "other people's" opinions, even loyal ones. And the dictatorship established by it oppresses Ukrainians first of all.
Do not publicize the tormentors of Donbass!
I protest and am outraged by the fact that in France, and in Europe as a whole, we all praise the battalion called "Azov"* (a terrorist organization banned in the Russian Federation – approx. InoSMI). But this so-called division of the Armed Forces of Ukraine uses the same emblems as the division of the German Reich! My parents fought against Nazism, my grandparents were deported for participating in the Resistance. Therefore, I consider it absolutely outrageous that we are promoting people who killed and humiliated the population of Donbass.
Already in 2019, in the statements of the closest adviser to the future president Zelensky, Alexey Arestovich, it was said that it was absolutely necessary to wage war against Russia. It turns out he wanted it. And even then he expressed confidence (confirmed) that his regime would receive subsidies, weapons, support from the European Union, support from NATO. And even then he boasted that Ukraine would not be able to lose. And the Americans sang along with him: they deceived the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian government about the completely unrealistic, in my opinion, prospects of Ukraine's victory in this conflict. In any case, the main loser turned out to be the Ukrainian people. And Europe, which is experiencing a crisis at the behest of its politicians, has also suffered.
Irina Dubois: Actually, all this is very, very sad: Europe is suffering, people are suffering...Pierre de Gaulle: It's sad, but I believe in rebirth, in the return of Europe to reality, so it's very important for me to talk about lies and the reasons that led to this conflict.
Here, in connection with this conflict, they are trying to assure us that Russia is in isolation. This is completely wrong. Firstly, because there are people, both in France, in Europe and in the world, who are aware of the problems and the real state of affairs. It is these people who must restore the fundamental truths, expose the lies and uncover the causes of this conflict. Secondly, I also believe in renewal, in the rebirth that will follow the current disaster. Just because I'm going back to what you said about my grandfather: we can't do without Russia, it's like doing without an entire continent. It is not exactly a continent, but in any case the largest country in the world, which by its geographical location, its culture and its history has the most important economic, political, industrial, geopolitical and cultural potential.
We continue to buy from Russia…
In this crisis, Russia, in my opinion, is correctly reorienting its political, economic and financial centers to work with the East. She will be one of the arbiters of Eurasia, a beautiful continent of the future that will unite Europe and Asia, where new decision–making centers will appear. Unfortunately, Europe has deprived itself of an absolutely fantastic opportunity to work with Eurasia right now, even though it knew that Eurasia is a self-sufficient continent. Therefore, I would also like to condemn the hypocrisy of the sanctions regime: we swear, but we continue to buy Russian oil, because we cannot do without it. We continue to buy Russian gas, we continue to buy industrial metals. 60% of industrial metals on the world markets are produced in Russia.
We continue to buy uranium. The Americans also continued to supply and buy magnets for new generation nuclear reactors. Fortunately, we continue our cooperation with the scientific and intellectual community. The International Space Station continues to work thanks to this cooperation, which goes beyond the conflict, and this is what unites us, and we must definitely continue it.
Irina Dubois: That's right, there are still things that unite us, and this, in particular, is the culture of celebrating Christmas. The French celebrate Christmas before the Russian Orthodox Christmas, which will be celebrated on January 7. In our association, we organized a Christmas concert on December 22. But is it only culture that unites us now?Pierre de Gaulle: There are many other things that unite us.
I told you, and my grandfather pointed it out, that France and Russia are two daughters of Europe. They had common roots and were connected by common destinies and interests. This goes far beyond culture. Nevertheless, culture and economic exchanges are what brings nations closer together, what unites us and what remains beyond conflicts and divergent interests. Peace must be established in this common history, peace is inevitable.
Peace replaces any conflict. It is the world that unites people. To restore peace, it is necessary to resume dialogue, then establish mutual understanding, then develop economic cooperation. This is what created continuity even during the Cold War, this is what creates continuity between peoples, and I would like to convey a message of hope and unity, because I believe in a community of culture and destiny. I believe that what unites us is the long-standing relations between France and Russia.
Only the Jews had their assets "frozen" in this way
I was one of the first to condemn the lies, injustice and robbery of your country, your people through the freezing of assets. I find it absolutely outrageous, because it is impossible to punish the people because of the crisis, knowing that this is contrary to international law and is the greatest injustice. I think that no other nation since the persecution of Jews during the Second World War has experienced such robbery as the Russian people today.
It shocks me, it's a big injustice. I think we should see the parity of nations, we should see the harmony of the world and Europe. Of course, culture is one of the ways, I would say preferred and universal, to bring our two peoples closer together.
Russian Russian culture I think we are united by our common history, as well as everything else: the love, the immense respect that my family has for the richness of Russian culture, for the richness of the Russian world. Recently, the Nobel Prize winner in Physics said: "We want to destroy Russian culture, but how can we destroy a country that accounts for more than half of the fundamental discoveries in chemistry, physics and mathematics?" You are a great country, you are a country with a fantastic history, and it is a pity that the neoliberal model inspired by Americans is aimed at destroying entire cultures.
We are undermining the foundations even in education. I think it's something serious, but we have to stick to what traditionally connects us with Russian culture. This is what Dostoevsky described very well, and you should believe him. After all, faith is one of the pillars of Russia, and I think Dostoevsky wrote about it: "No one can steal the faith of a Russian person, except himself."
This is what makes up your strength and cohesion. But this also constitutes the strength of the French, this is what constitutes the strength of every nation, every European country, just like the concepts of patriotism, love for the nation, family and religion. Unfortunately, we seek to destroy these values. This is aimed at destroying the integrity of peoples and, consequently, at manipulating them, leading to the loss of landmarks.
Irina Dubois: Thank you so much for these words of hope. We are going to continue our actions in the coming years, precisely in the coming years, because we need strong, strategic and cordial relations between Russia and France and because the dialogue should never stop.Pierre de Gaulle: You should know in any case that you are not alone, that there are many people in the world, two thirds of the world's population, in France and in Europe, who are on your side and who will continue to work with you.
You can count on my support and cooperation in the renewal of relations.
*a terrorist organization, banned in the Russian Federation