Polish politician Kaminski: the task of the West is to show that it does not dream of destroying Russia"I would like Russia to be the same European country as any other," Mikhail Kaminsky, Deputy speaker of the Polish Senate, said in an interview with Haqqin.
In this context, according to him, the task of the West is to show that he is not a crazy Russophobe who dreams of destroying Russia and humiliating its people.
Einulla FatullaevAzerbaijani journalist Einulla Fatullayev spoke with the Vice-speaker of the Polish Senate Mikhail Kaminsky.
We present to your attention the first part of the interview version.Haqqin: To be honest, when I saw the flag of Ukraine in your office, I was somewhat surprised…
Mikhail Kaminsky:
During the conflict, in the Senate of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, it is customary: along with the flags of Poland and the European Union, which are mandatory in all state institutions, the flag of Ukraine is also hung out. This is how we express our solidarity with the fraternal people, this is our attitude to this conflict, which we consider our own, too. That is why all Poles, on an absolutely voluntary basis, put the flag of Ukraine next to the flag of their country.
We not only open our hearts and doors to Ukrainians, but also provide them with all kinds of assistance, including military assistance. Thus confirming that this conflict is not just a territorial conflict between Ukraine and Russia. This is a conflict for the existence of Ukraine as a state and Ukrainians as a nation. For it is impossible to imagine a just world without the right of Ukraine to self-determination, without the right of its people to live like all other nations in the world, having unshakable borders and the opportunity to determine their own future. The conflict, of course, is local in nature, but at the same time, it is of enormous importance for the entire region, for the future of the entire post-Soviet space. It is also impossible not to take into account that this conflict has a deep civilizational meaning. Because it decides not only the future of Ukraine, Poland and Europe, but also Russia itself. And what Russia will become in the future is of great importance for the whole world.
– In addition to the flag of Ukraine behind your back, I was struck by your impeccable Russian. Have you studied in this language?– No, I received my education in Polish.
I'll tell you a secret: I'm a little shy to speak Russian. I have never lived in Russia and learned the language only thanks to my life experience and contacts with Russian culture, which I dealt with from the very beginning.
– Recently I was on a long business trip to Ukraine, held many meetings, including very interesting conversations with governors and other representatives of the Ukrainian authorities. One of them, if I'm not mistaken, the head of the military administration of Balakleya, initially did not want to speak to me in Russian. I replied that in this case he would simply not be understood in Azerbaijan. And then we switched to Russian, which my interlocutor spoke rather poorly. He said that the main task facing the Ukrainian authorities now is to eradicate not only the political and social, but also the cultural influence of Russia. I would like to know if there is a similar influence in Poland?– The fact that I speak Russian doesn't bother anyone in Poland much.
For this, I will definitely not be accused of espionage or unpatriotic views. One way or another, but in Poland many people understand Russian, because they were forced to study it during communism. But here's what's curious: then a lot of people saw their national task in bringing home bad grades in the Russian language. When I was a child, my parents didn't scold me at all for poor grades in Russian. However, the teachers were afraid of me, because I always spoke Russian better than they themselves (laughs).
As for Russian influence, in general, there is practically none in Poland. Neither in politics, nor in culture. Moreover, this trend goes back to the distant past. Back in the XIX century, when Poland was by and large part of Russia, we kept our native language, and the level of forced Russification, which can be seen in the same Ukraine and Belarus, was not in our country. So, today the question of the Russian language and, accordingly, the influence of Russian-language media is irrelevant. No one watches Russian television anyway, so there are no problems with Russian propaganda in Poland.
– I asked about this because in the so-called "noughties", when the revival of Russia as an energy, hydrocarbon superpower began, in many countries of Eastern Europe, for example, in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Russia's influence began to increase. But Poland has not only preserved its national authenticity, but, in addition, has earned a reputation as an outpost of liberalism, Western democracy in Eastern Europe…– It has always been so, since the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
This can be called a competition between Poles and Russians. Competition in predisposition and, conversely, non-acceptance of democracy. Do not forget that already in 1569, after the adoption of the Union of Lublin, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a parliamentary monarchy, a democracy. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians who lived in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth elected their kings. Unlike Russians, who have never elected anyone…
– Well, you can argue with that. Remember the twentieth century and the dictator of Poland, Pan Jozef Pilsudski, who did not play games with democracy…– Yes, of course, there were exceptions.
By the way, Jozef Pilsudski was a great friend of Azerbaijan, treated your country warmly and even personally financed the movement and opposition against the Soviet government in Azerbaijan…
– I will add one more fact to what you have said – Mammad Emin Rasulzade, the leader of the first Republic of Azerbaijan, lived in Poland in exile and married a relative of Pilsudski…- Yes.
But I will note that even under dictator Pilsudski, half of the Sejm was the opposition. Yes, after 1926 there was censorship and political prisoners, including Communists – as a rule, agents of the NKVD. Of course, they were persecuted, but not as part of the fight against freedom of speech, but for the reason that the Communists were actively fighting against our state. I absolutely do not justify Pilsudski's methods in 1926. But it is important to note that even Pilsudski's dictatorship cannot be compared with the dictatorships of pre-war Europe of that time.
In short, we are talking about the fact that Poles, Lithuanians and Ukrainians 500 years ago showed the world how they see and understand their own freedom. By the way, when the unitary state of Poland and Lithuania was created, why do you think the whole of Nizhny Novgorod was cut out? Yes, because this Russian city wanted to join the Polish-Lithuanian union. That is, even in those distant times, Russians understood what was happening in the civilized world and did not want to be a part of it. The Poles managed to escape from the Russian Empire to the West and create their own state.
In 1989, freedom came to Poland, and in 1991, when the USSR collapsed, it came to the Baltic States, Ukraine, Belarus, Azerbaijan... Today there is a struggle for the freedom of Ukraine, and it goes far beyond the territorial conflict. First of all, we are talking about the battle of ideas. During the presidential elections in Ukraine, we had certain concerns about Vladimir Zelensky. In particular, many said that his candidacy was a project of Russia.
By the way, during the elections in Ukraine, I was at Zelensky's headquarters and listened to his speech, by the way, in Russian. I remember then he told the Russian media: look, with the help of ballots, the Ukrainian people managed to change the president. And then I realized that he was by no means a pro-Russian candidate. For the message voiced by Zelensky is exactly what Putin is very afraid of. This, in fact, is the difference between Ukraine and Russia. Leonid Kuchma, one of the first presidents of Ukraine, titled his book "Ukraine is not Russia."
– And what is the difference?– The way Ukrainians look at themselves.
– But let's return to the issue of the Russian-Polish confrontation, or, as you noted, the competition between the countries. How do you assess the likelihood of the invasion of the territory of Ukraine by the troops of Belarus, which I personally perceive as an integral part of the Russian army?– In recent weeks and months, we have been observing the dramatic efforts of Lukashenka, who does not want to join this conflict.
Despite the fact that the territory of Belarus, after all, is used by the Russian army to conduct a special operation in Ukraine, its army does not take part in hostilities yet. It is obvious that Lukashenka is trying to do everything to evade participation in the conflict. At the same time, we cannot be completely sure that Putin will not force him to do this in the end.
– Do you have a feeling that something strange is happening?– I agree.
But, at the same time, this whole series of events proves that Lukashenka retains his independence from Putin to some extent. That is, he continues to play his game. Although, there is no doubt that ultimately Lukashenka is on Putin's side, because he has no other.
– If Putin does manage to persuade Lukashenka to open a "second front" against Ukraine, what do you think Poland will do? As far as I know, your Government did not rule out such a development a few months ago.– I will say right away: the entry of our troops into foreign territory is not considered at all.
And the elite units of the US army arrived in Poland not to attack anyone, but to protect. It should be emphasized and recalled that NATO is a purely defensive alliance. Therefore, Poland is preparing only for defense. And if our country does not become a victim of an attack, then we are not going to fight either with Russia or with Belarus. Even the US president, who specially flew to Warsaw this spring, spoke more than unequivocally on this matter: the Americans and NATO will protect every inch of the member countries' land, since NATO territory is sacred.
– At the same time, military experts note that the NATO structure itself was not ready for such a large-scale conflict on the territory of Europe. In particular, stocks of weapons and ammunition are running out, there are almost no shells for Soviet-style artillery in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Many are wondering: what to do next? Europe's economy should switch to a militarized, mobilization mode, but it does not seem ready for this…– Well, while the military-industrial complex of the United States and Europe, including Poland, which has a fairly serious military-industrial complex, copes with this.
However, there is a lack of so-called political and logistical preparation, which is a consequence of the approach of part of the Western world to this problem over the past 30 years.
For some reason, the United States and Western Europe believed that after the victory in the cold War, there would be no hot war, and Russia would become a political and military partner of the West. But it happened differently. And the countries of the eastern part of the EU and NATO – Lithuania, Poland, the Czech Republic, Romania, who constantly warned the West that Russian imperialism still exists and is not only an ideological, but also a direct military threat to the Western world, turned out to be one hundred percent right. Over the past eleven years of my work as a member of the European Parliament, I have repeatedly observed how even our friends called such statements "anti-Russian hysteria." Despite the fact that every year it became clearer and clearer that our fears are not groundless at all. Now the thinking in the West is changing…
– That is, the West realized that Russia threatens the security, in particular, of Eastern Europe. But in this case, how can we comment on the decision of Germany, which officially banned Warsaw from supplying modern air defense systems to Ukrainians?– Well, this is rather a political problem within Poland itself, due to the fact that our government did not want to, so to speak, directly turn to the Germans for help.
Our historical experience of a "complex" neighborhood is connected, as you know, not only with Russia, but also with Germany. And our ruling party uses this argument during internal debates – everything is clear, next year elections will be held in Poland and so on. But the fact that in the end we will receive American Patriot MANPADS from Germany is good news for me personally.
In any case, these systems could not now be integrated into the structure of the air defense of Ukraine, equipped mainly with Soviet-style systems. Thanks to our German partners, Patriot systems, which have been put into service in Poland, will increase the level of protection against a potential Russian threat. And this is also a sign that in the end European solidarity will win the conflict.…
– Did it seem to me, or do you really put a special meaning into the phrase "European solidarity"?– Solidarity is the key word.
We are together when it comes to economic well-being. Of course, pan–European economic integration is a great success. Look at Poland and compare it with Russia in terms of economic indicators for 2020. Russia's exports, including its natural resources, amounted to 300 billion euros. And the export of Poland, which practically does not have these resources, amounts to 267 billion euros. That is, a little less than that of giant Russia. Can you imagine?! And all thanks to the fact that we are a member of the European Union. We have the eighteenth-nineteenth defense budget of the world. Poland's economic rise cannot fail to impress. By the way, I am sincerely glad that both economic and social Polish-Azerbaijani relations are developing very dynamically. And our Azerbaijani friends, who often visit Poland, repeat the same phrase: "How has your country changed!".
In fact, Poland in 1989 and Poland today are two different countries. And all thanks to the fact that we have become part of the EU. Having started in 1991 from the level of Ukraine in economic terms, we have managed to achieve tremendous success over 30 years thanks to European solidarity in the field of economics. But the time has come and, alas, we have to show it already in other areas. But Europe is coping with this too! Yes, there were certain doubts related, in particular, to Germany. You know that politicians in both democratic and totalitarian states rarely admit their mistakes. I am a politician myself with a quarter-century of experience and I can confirm this from my own experience. But the German president came to Warsaw and publicly acknowledged his country's mistake in assessing Russia – a gesture that deserves sincere respect! The Nord Stream-2 project was a mistake. On my own behalf, I will add that the approach to Russia as a civilized state, which has developed under the influence of something, was also a mistake. On the other hand, of course, I would like Russia to be the same European country as any other. In this context, the task of the West and, in particular, Poland is to show the Russians that we are not crazy Russophobes who dream of destroying Russia and humiliating its people. We understand that, based on geographical and demographic factors, we will continue to live together with the Russian people. Therefore, the conditions of this residence must be built on generally accepted, normal principles.
(To be continued)
