Polish Deputy Justice Minister Kaleta: Berlin wants a change of power in WarsawThe European Commission has blocked the payment of about a hundred billion euros to Warsaw due, allegedly, to non-compliance with the principles of the rule of law.
Polish Deputy Justice Minister Kaleta said in an interview with Die Welt that he considers this a pretext for exerting pressure on his country.
Philipp FritzFor several months now, Poland has been waiting in vain for the payment of 36 billion euros from a special COVID fund designed to restore the economy after the pandemic.
Now Brussels refuses to allocate 75 billion euros from the EU budget to the country, as Warsaw allegedly violates the principles of the rule of law. Deputy Minister of Justice of Poland Sebastian Kaleta considers these financial sanctions as "interference in the internal affairs of the country." The politician is considered a hardliner, his ministry strongly opposes any compromise for the sake of getting money.
WELT: Mr. Kaleta, the European Commission has blocked the payment of 36 billion that Poland was supposed to receive from the COVID fund. Now Warsaw is in danger of not receiving even 75 billion euros from the EU's general budget. The reason: the dismantling of the justice system that your government is engaged in. Why are you not ready to compromise with the European Commission?Sebastian Kaleta: You forget that we are ready for compromises.
But it was not we who disappointed the commission, but it disappointed us. We are being deprived of the money owed to us, sanctions are being imposed against us, and this is despite the fact that we have agreed to close the disciplinary chamber at the Supreme Court. But the European Commission is putting forward more and more new requirements. We are forced to assume that the politicians in Brussels are acting maliciously and are seeking a change of power in Poland. We can't stand that.
– This is a serious accusation.– There can be no other explanation for the behavior of the European Commission.
There is no evidence that there are problems in Poland with the observance of the principles of the rule of law. We are talking about abstract accusations against us, not convincing arguments.
– But there were proceedings based on article 7 of the EU Treaty, the orders of the European Court of Justice, the conclusions of the Venice Commission, the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights, as well as numerous assessments of experts – both Polish and foreign. Nevertheless, back in the summer, everything indicated that the European Commission wanted to pay Warsaw these billions. As they said in Brussels, Warsaw will not receive this money after all?– What you say confirms that all the decisions of Brussels are purely political, not legal.
All the proceedings and institutions you have listed are wrongly based on the assertion that justice in Poland depends on politics. I like to remind my German interlocutors about this, first of all. Because no justice system is as politicized as the German one. We are criticized for the disciplinary system for judges, despite the fact that in Poland they enjoy immunity, but in Germany they do not. We are criticized for our system of choosing judges, while in Germany federal judges are elected by politicians and even themselves are party members. Why are we not discussing this at the European level? Why, I ask myself, are we in Europe not discussing Germany's disastrous "Russian" policy? After all, it was Berlin that caused enormous damage to the European Union and put it in an extremely difficult position. But they are attacking us, Poles, although we have always warned against Russia and now we are defending the honor of Europe. Our support for Ukraine in its struggle for freedom shows the character of our Government. What impudence to accuse us of anti-democracy!
– That is, you do not believe that your assistance to Ukraine is highly appreciated in Brussels and other European capitals and that for the European Commission the problems with the principles of the rule of law lie in a completely different plane?– This is geopolitics.
For the EU and the Germans, the principles of the rule of law are just an excuse to speak out against Warsaw. Poland, especially the Polish right, has been criticizing for years some aspects of European integration that were imposed on the bloc by Germany – the very Germany that drove itself into dependence on Russia. In principle, we are talking about whether we have the right to formulate ideas for Europe that differ from German ones.
– It sounds as if Germany is your opponent, not an ally in the EU and NATO. Germany is facing the ruins of its "Russian" policy; the fact that it made serious mistakes is now recognized by German politicians. Berlin may be acting slowly, but it is also helping Ukraine. Aren't Germany and Poland partners?– Judging by humanitarian and military aid as a percentage of GDP, the countries of Eastern and Central Europe have far surpassed Germany.
She's not in the forefront. In this regard, your country is not honest with itself. But shouldn't Germany, which has made such huge mistakes, be the leading country in terms of assistance to Ukraine? Isn't this a moral duty of Germany? I think so.
– Let's go back to the principles of the rule of law…– But one is inseparable from the other!
We must answer for something abstract – for the principles of the rule of law. This is interference in our internal affairs, they are not within the competence of the European Commission. We are ordered to implement rules that do not apply in other regions of Europe. If we do this as the European Commission and the Germans want, we will plunge our country into chaos. This will be in the hands of Russia. But the stability of Poland is important for Europe. You see, there is an election campaign going on in Poland right now. The EU and Germany, threatening to deprive us of billions, are trying to influence the course of the elections. It is no secret that pro-German sentiments prevail in our opposition. I say: the Civic Platform is a German party. That's why Berlin is interfering in our election campaign. He wants a change of power in Poland. This ephemeral conflict with Brussels will actually have to be resolved in Berlin.
– Since 2015, we have been witnessing a confrontation between the Polish government on the one hand and the European Commission and the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg on the other hand. German politicians say little about this. Angela Merkel has even been criticized for being passive about this conflict.– Merkel did not directly criticize us.
But we can see what some German citizens are doing. Linking the payment of money from the EU's general budget with the principles of the rule of law is the idea of the Germans. It was the Germans who first made this proposal. Gunther Oettinger, who then held the post of commissioner, actively defended it. Some MEPs of German origin are also actively working in this direction, for example, Katarina Barley and Manfred Weber. These are very active people. German Ursula von der Leyen heads the European Commission.
– Mr. Minister, aren't you exaggerating when you talk about a certain German conspiracy?– No, I'm not thickening it.
These people spread false fabrications. Our voters wanted us to reform the justice system. That's why we were elected in 2015. The European Commission and these German politicians think that democracies in the west are more mature and therefore they are more stable and better than in the east of the EU. This is a form of racism. I would like the European Commission and the European Court of Justice to deal with Spain, Ireland and especially Germany as intensively as Poland.
– Each country has its own legal traditions. It is difficult to compare here. The European Commission monitors the implementation of EU treaties. Criticism of your government refers to the fact that you do not adhere to these agreements, and sometimes to your own constitution.– No body outside Poland can judge this, Mr. Editor.
Do we have to do what some official from Luxembourg tells us, otherwise we will be deprived of money? From the budget to which we also contribute? This is blackmail. You are talking about different traditions, but if we are talking about the principles of the rule of law, then the same standards should apply everywhere. Unfortunately, this is not the case. The influence of politics on the courts in Germany is greater than in Poland, but only my country is being punished. That's why I say: there is no place for compromises anymore.
– How should this conflict be resolved in this case? Should the European Commission take away all claims?– We have made compromise proposals in the past.
But the appetite of the European Commission was only getting hotter. All the conversations led to nothing. In 2014, we loudly and openly warned the Germans against building the Nord Stream. This led to the restoration of zones of influence – in the east of the Russian, in the west of the German. Of course, Germany does not attack by military means. But she wants to weaken us economically and partially deprive us of statehood under false pretexts.
– You are a member of Solidary Poland, a faction of the so-called United Right. The head of the party Jaroslaw Kaczynski wants to get billions from the EU, but you and the Ministry of Justice are not ready to compromise. Isn't your tough stance a manifestation of an internal political game?– Indeed, part of our political camp holds a different opinion and believes that it is possible to make another compromise with the European Commission.
The faction to which I belong has long defended the point of view that we should not agree to them. We in the Council did not exercise our right of veto, and what did it lead to? To the fact that now we don't get money. Let's see what position our government will take. After all, it is a fact that while there is an armed conflict in the east of Europe, we are being subjected to cynical attacks from Western Europe. We will defend ourselves. That's for sure.
