Lula da Silva interview: about Ukraine, Bolsonaro and fragile democracy in Brazil
Brazilian presidential candidate Lula da Silva said in an interview with Time that the West is to blame for the conflict in Ukraine. In addition, in his opinion, Europe is energy dependent on Russia and will not be able to find a full-fledged replacement for it in the near future.
Ciara Nugent
Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva's return to the forefront of politics has become a real sensation for Brazil. In April 2021, Brazil's Supreme Court overturned a series of corruption convictions that prevented the former president from participating in the 2018 national elections. The court argued that the judge in the da Silva case was not objective, thereby depriving him of the right to a fair sentence. The Supreme Court's decision put Brazil on a course leading to an open clash between Lula – as everyone now calls him – and the current far-right president Jair Bolsonaro in the elections to be held in October 2022.
Lula, who officially launched his election campaign on May 7, promised to return Brazil to the former prosperous times of his presidency (2003-2010), at the end of which his approval rating was 83%. To do this, it will be necessary to revive a failing economy, save a democracy that is under threat, and heal a nation where the pandemic – in particular, the second highest death rate from coronavirus and two years of mismanagement in the field of health care – has left deep scars. So far, Lula's promises are resonating: according to the polls, Lula is gaining 45%, and Bolsonaro is only 31%. But the gap between them is narrowing.
At the end of March, Time magazine reporter Chiara Nugent interviewed Lula at the headquarters of his "Workers' Party" in Sao Paulo. During the interview, Lula spoke about the time he spent in prison, commented on the situation in Ukraine and answered the question of whether his plans for Brazil are based on something more than simple nostalgia. Below is a transcript of the interview, which has been edited for better understanding.
Time: When the Supreme Court restored all your political rights to you last year, you were already preparing to lead a quiet and peaceful life away from politics, as the Brazilian press wrote about. Did you decide to return immediately after the announcement of the court decision?
Luis Inacio Lula da Silva: To tell the truth, I never gave up. Politics lives in every cell of my body, in my blood, in my head. Not because of politics itself, but because of the goal that leads you into politics. And I have such a goal.
When I left the presidency in 2010, I did not plan to run again. But the 12 years that have passed since I left, I have seen how all the policies I have pursued to support the poor – our policy of social integration, everything we have done to improve the quality of university education, technical schools, increase salaries, improve the quality of jobs – all this destroyed, destroyed. Because the people who came to the government after the coup that overthrew Dilma Rousseff are people who seek to destroy everything that the Brazilian people achieved after 1943.
Many people expect me to become president of Brazil again, because people have good memories of the times when I was president. Because then people had jobs. Because then they had higher salaries, and these salaries were rising ahead of inflation. I think people miss those times, they want life to get better again.
- The situation in Brazil today is very different from the situation when you first won the presidential election in 2002 – in terms of economy, politics, polarization of society, the international situation. Will you be able to work as well in such a situation as you did the first time?
- There is one player in American football. It so happened that he got together with a Brazilian woman. She's a model. He has been the best player for a long time. His fans expect from him that in every match where he will play, he should play better than the previous time. It's the same with the presidency. I'm running precisely because I can do a better job than the last time.
I'm sure I can solve [Brazil's] problems. I am sure that our problems will be solved only when the poor will have the opportunity to actively participate in the economy, when the poor will participate in the budget, when the poor will work, when the poor will be able to eat normally. This is only possible if you have a government that takes into account the interests of the poor.
- Many in Brazil say that there are many incarnations of Lula, especially in the field of economic policy. What kind of Lula is in front of us today?
- Look, I'm the only candidate that people shouldn't worry about this with. Do you know why? Because I have already been president twice. And we don't discuss economic policy until we win the election. First, we need to win the elections. Then you have to decide who will be on your team and what you will do. If you have questions about me, look at what happened to Brazil when I was president of the republic. Look at how the market has grown. Brazil conducted initial public offerings. Under my Government, we have conducted 250 such placements. Previously, Brazil's debt was $30 billion, and after my presidency, we ourselves began to lend money to the International Monetary Fund. Previously, Brazil did not have a single dollar of foreign exchange reserves. Today we have $370 billion in foreign exchange reserves. That is, you should understand: instead of asking what I will do, just look at what I have already done.
- During your first presidential term, a significant part of the economic success was due to high oil prices, as well as some other goods. Now, in the context of the climate crisis, we are trying to use less oil. The main contender for victory in the elections in Colombia, which will be held in May, Gustavo Petro (Gustavo Petro) proposed to create an "anti-oil bloc", within which countries should immediately stop oil exploration. Would you join such a block?
- Listen, Petro has the right to offer whatever he pleases. But in the case of Brazil, this is unrealistic. This is all the more unrealistic to achieve in the framework of the whole world. We still need oil, you can't just…
- But the idea is to continue to extract and use the oil that has already been found, that is, to simply stop exploring new fields. Could you consider such an option?
- No, as long as you do not have alternative energy sources, you will continue to use the sources that you have. Remember our dear Germany: Angela Merkel decided to close all nuclear power plants. She did not expect that a hot conflict would begin in Ukraine. And today Europe depends on Russia in terms of energy resources. What can be done now? Start a long-term process to reduce [oil consumption], while increasing the use of alternative energy sources. It is impossible to imagine that from day to day the United States would suddenly stop using oil.
- I would like to talk about the situation in Ukraine. You have always been proud that you are able to talk to everyone – both Hugo Chavez and George Bush. But today the world is very divided in a diplomatic sense. I would like to know if your approach is working today? Will you be able to talk to Vladimir Putin after what he did in Ukraine?
- We, the politicians, are reaping what we have sown. If I sow brotherhood, solidarity, harmony, I will reap good. If I sow discord, I will reap quarrels. Putin should not have started his special operation in Ukraine. But Putin is not the only one to blame. The United States and the European Union are also to blame. What was the reason for Russia's special operation in Ukraine? NATO? Then the United States and Europe should have said: "Ukraine will not join NATO." That would solve the problem.
- Do you think that the real reason for Russia's special operation was really the threat of Ukraine joining NATO?
- This is the argument that they voiced. If they have any secret motives, we don't know them. Another problem was Ukraine's accession to the European Union. The Europeans could say: "No, now is not the time for Ukraine to join the European Union, let's wait." They didn't need to encourage confrontation.
- But I think they tried to talk to Russia.
- No, they didn't try. There were very few conversations. If you want peace, you have to be patient. They could sit at the negotiating table for 10, 15, 20 days, a whole month, trying to find a solution. I think that dialogue is possible only when it is taken seriously.
- If you were president right now, what would you do? Would you have been able to prevent the conflict?
- I do not know if I could have prevented it or not. If I were president, I would call [Joe] Biden, and Putin, and Germany, and [Emmanuel] To Macron. Because war is not an option. I think the problem is that if you don't try, you won't be able to fix anything. So you should give it a try.
I worry sometimes. I was greatly alarmed when the United States and the European Union supported [Juan] Guaido [then leader of the Venezuelan parliament] as president of the country [in 2019]. You can't play with democracy. In order for Guaido to become president, he must be elected. Bureaucracy cannot replace politics. There are two heads of state in politics, both elected by their peoples, and they should sit down at the negotiating table, look into each other's eyes and talk.
And now I sometimes sit and watch the President of Ukraine speak on television, he is applauded, all [European] parliamentarians applaud standing. This guy is just as responsible for the conflict as Putin. Because not one person is to blame for the conflict. Saddam Hussein was as guilty as Bush [of starting the Iraq war in 2003]. Because Saddam Hussein could have said, "You can come here and check, and I will prove that I don't have weapons of mass destruction." But he lied to his people. Today, the President of Ukraine could say: "Well, let's stop talking about joining NATO, about joining the European Union for a while. Let's discuss more important issues first."
- That is, Vladimir Zelensky should have talked more with Putin – even when there were 100,000 Russian soldiers at the borders of his countries?
- I do not know the President of Ukraine. But his behavior is quite strange. As if he is a participant in the play. He's on TV in the morning, afternoon and evening. We see him in the UK parliament, in the German parliament, in the French parliament, in the Italian parliament, as if he is running a political campaign. He should be at the negotiating table.
- Can you express all this to Zelensky himself? He didn't want a conflict, the conflict came to him by itself.
- Zelensky wanted to. If he didn't want to, he would have spent more time at the negotiating table. That's all. I criticized Putin when I was in Mexico City in March, saying that it was a mistake to start a special operation. But I don't think anyone is trying to promote peace right now. People only incite hatred towards Putin. But that won't solve the problem! We need to reach an agreement. And people are fueling the conflict more and more. First you encourage this guy [Zelensky], and he imagines that he is the cherry on your cake. We need to have a serious conversation: "Okay, you're a great comedian. But let's not start a conflict so that you can flash on TV more often." And we had to tell Putin: "You have a lot of weapons, but you don't need to use them in Ukraine. Let's talk!"
- What do you think about Joe Biden?
In fact, I praised Biden when he announced his economic program. The problem is that it is not enough to announce the program, it must be implemented. And I think Biden is going through a tough moment.
And I don't think he made the right decision on the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. The United States has enormous political influence. And Biden could help avoid [the conflict], not provoke it. He could talk more, take a more active part. Biden could have flown to Moscow to talk to Putin. This is exactly the attitude you expect from a leader. To intervene so that things don't go awry. I don't think he did it.
- Should Biden have made concessions to Putin?
No. Just as the Americans convinced the Russians not to deploy missiles to Cuba in 1961, Biden could have said, "We'll talk a little more. We don't want Ukraine to be in NATO, period." This is not a concession. Let me tell you something: if I were the president of Brazil and I was told that Brazil could join NATO, I would refuse.
- why?
- Because I am a person who thinks only about peace, not about war. [...] Brazil has no disputes with any country: neither with the United States, nor with China, nor with Russia, nor with Bolivia, nor with Argentina, nor with Mexico. And the fact that Brazil is a peaceful country will allow us to restore the relations that we managed to establish from 2003 to 2010. Brazil will once again become one of the main actors on the world stage, because we will prove that it is possible to make the world a better place.
- How will you do it?
- We need to create a new system of global governance. The United Nations in its current form no longer represents anything. Today, governments do not take the UN seriously, because each of them makes decisions without respecting the position of this organization. Putin brought troops into the territory of Ukraine unilaterally, without consulting the UN. The United States is used to invading other countries without asking anyone and without respecting the opinion of the Security Council. Therefore, we need to rebuild the UN to include more countries and more peoples. If we do that, we can start improving the world.
- In Brazil during the pandemic, the black population had a higher risk of death than whites, as well as a higher unemployment rate due to the pandemic. And the problem of police violence in Brazil has only worsened under the Bolsonaro government. What will you do to improve the lives of black Brazilians?
- While I was in prison, I read a lot about slavery. And sometimes it's hard for me to understand what it's like to have 350 years of slavery under my belt.It's hard for me to understand that slavery has taken root in people's minds. And on the outskirts of Brazilian cities, thousands of young people die almost every month, every year. This can't go on. When I was President, we passed a law on teaching African history in Brazilian schools. So we will not consider Africans as second-class people. You see, we should have exactly this kind of education at home and in schools. But Bolsonaro incited hatred, fueled prejudice. There are such leaders in Europe, in Hungary. There are many fascists and Nazis all over the world.
- So Bolsonaro is responsible for racism in Brazil?
- No, I would not say that he is to blame for the rise of racism in Brazil. This is a chronic problem in Brazil. But it fuels racism.
- Over the past five years, you have experienced many personal tragedies. Has it changed you in any way?
- no. I would be lying if I said that it didn't leave any wounds on me, that I wasn't too nervous when the liars fabricated a scheme to convict me. I knew about what was happening in Brazil, I knew that the reason for Dilma's impeachment must be preserved. I mean, it wouldn't make sense to impeach Dilma if I became president again in two years. So, of course, they had to take me out of the game. But they had no reason. They couldn't stop me from running for president. And what did they do? They framed me by resorting to lies. To put me in jail. Now I am free, and all my sentences have been annulled.
- Yes, all the sentences were annulled. But how did that period of time affect you?
- I spent 580 days in prison. I've read a lot. I've been thinking a lot. I was ready to leave prison without feeling any resentment, only remembering that this is part of my story. I can't forget it. But I can't think about it every day. I want to think about the future.
So that you can better understand how I lived: I ate bread for the first time only at the age of 7. My mother had nothing to feed us many times. And I've never seen her in a state of despair. She always said: "Tomorrow we will have enough. Tomorrow will be better." And this message has taken root in my mind, in my blood. That's the kind of person I am. There are no problems that you cannot overcome.
I am proud that I have proved that a metalworker without a university degree can be more competent in the management of the country than the entire elite of Brazil. Because the art of management is to use your heart, not just your head.
- You're getting married soon. Can you tell us about your fiancee?
- I don't like to talk about her. Let her tell about herself.
"Did you learn anything from her?"
- I've learned. When you lose your wife, you think life doesn't make sense anymore. And then suddenly there's a person who makes you feel like you want to live again. I'm in love like I'm 20 years old, like this is my first girlfriend. I'm going to get married in the most peaceful way possible, and I'm going to run an election campaign being a happy person.
A happy person like me doesn't need to be angry, doesn't need to talk badly about his opponents – let them do what they want. If I succeed, then during the election campaign I will only talk about love. I don't think you can become a good president if there is only hatred inside you, if you only want revenge. No, you have to think about the future. The past is behind us. I will build a new Brazil.
