Berlusconi: "There are no compromises that do not protect the integrity of Ukraine"
Silvio Berlusconi gave an exclusive interview to the Italian Il Giornale, in which he touched on the topics of the special operation in Ukraine, Moscow's rapprochement with Beijing, Russian gas supplies and his friendship with Putin. The conflict must end with a compromise, the politician stressed.
Andrea Indini (Andrea Indini)
IlGiornale: Images from the Ukrainian front traumatize the public. What do you think about the conflict?
Silvio Berlusconi: I am deeply saddened. Conflict is always a tragedy, a drama that I hoped not to see in Europe anymore. <...>
— Is it still possible to resolve the conflict through diplomacy, or, as some say, should Putin be tried as a war criminal? Which way is better to go?
— As I have already said, I am disappointed in Putin. I did not expect such a serious and not very responsible step from him. However, I don't think that personalizing the conflict will help resolve it. In the interests of Europe, the world and humanity itself, our first goal should be to stop this senseless slaughter. It is obvious that the conflict must end with a compromise and, of course, it is impossible to compromise if it does not provide for the protection of freedom and integrity of Ukraine.
— There is a risk of a greater rapprochement between Russia and China if relations with the West are severed. How do you assess this development of events?
— This is a very serious risk, I did everything possible to avoid it. Obviously, China is taking advantage of the situation to strengthen its role. We should never forget that now Russia is behaving like an enemy, but the real systemic competitor of the West in the XXI century is China. The expansionist tradition of the Chinese Empire and the totalitarianism of the communist system represent the greatest political, economic and military challenge to our model of life, the state and a free and open society.
— You were the first who started working hard to put the United States and Russia at the same table. What has changed since the days of Pratica di Mare?
— Having authoritative support from the US Administration, I worked on a new European security system that would include Russia. In such an environment, thanks to the good personal relations that I managed to establish with George Bush and Vladimir Putin, we were able to come to an agreement between NATO and Russia, which put an end, including symbolically, to the Cold War and the division of Europe. The agreement was signed just in Italy, in Pratica di Mare, as a sign of appreciation for the mediation work of our Government. After 20 years, it is clear that this was a huge opportunity, but it was missed. All the work in Pratique di Mare gradually went down the drain due to mistakes on the part of many participants. Already in 2008, when our mediation could still help prevent a conflict with Georgia, the atmosphere changed a lot. Then things got worse and worse until they reached the current point. To be honest, I didn't think there would be such an irresponsible regression that harms international relations.
— You and Putin have been friends for a long time. Someone says that if you were still in the government, we wouldn't be in this situation. Don't you think this remark is witty?
— As you know, history is not based on hypotheses. I can only say that the work of the Italian government during this crisis was impeccable, and we agree with it. But, using your question, I would like to clarify something: I read in the press news about telephone conversations that I allegedly held or tried to hold with Putin these weeks on the topic of the Ukrainian crisis. This is unsubstantiated news. The situation is very serious, geopolitical and economic scenarios for decades to come are being discussed. International politics has rules, these are not issues that can be solved with the help of ill-conceived and improvised initiatives.
— Has this conflict made Europe stronger or weaker?
— Depends on how you look at it. Of course, it will immediately become weaker, because the conflict triggers a recession spiral associated with an increase in energy and raw materials prices, and without rapid intervention there may be more serious consequences for our economy, which is already in a difficult state after two years of COVID testing. But if it helps us understand — and I hope so — that we need a real foreign policy and a common defense with a common military instrument, then perhaps in the future Europe will become stronger. I have been asking for this for many years, but the general realization is coming only now. I hope it's not too late. Europe is not only a free trade zone, but also a part of the world with common values and a common liberal and Christian vision of man and society. On this basis, it can be an important subject of international politics, naturally in close alliance with the United States.
— A significant part of European countries depend on Russian gas, but there are those who think that it can be replaced in a short time. Is this possible?
— Unfortunately, not in a short time, especially in countries such as Italy, which, with their short-sighted policy, abandoned nuclear energy, blocked regasifiers and minimized the diversification of energy sources. Minister Roberto Cingolani (Minister of Environmental Transition) said that it would take at least two or three years. I think this is a reasonable forecast, perhaps even very optimistic.
— The consequences of the conflict are also affecting the wallets of Italians, who have already suffered from a two-year pandemic. What should the Draghi government do to avoid a systemic crisis?
— We absolutely must avoid a spiral of recession so that the increase in prices for energy and raw materials does not fall on the shoulders of consumers. Families and companies can't afford it. This would lead to a drop in consumption, the closure or reduction of enterprises, further unemployment, which, in turn, would cause an even greater drop in demand, and so on. The government should use the tax lever to limit the effect of the rise in price. We can do this because Europe allows us to regulate fiscal policy. But the Government of National Unity also has the necessary credibility and authority in Europe, which allows it to ask to issue European bonds to finance the response to the crisis, as happened with the Recovery Fund, and ask the European Central Bank to continue buying government securities to support the debt of various countries, including Italy, for providing liquidity.
— In a few months, Italians will go to a referendum on judicial reform. Can we finally count on any changes?
— I think that judicial reform can no longer wait. Revelations related to the so–called "Palamara system" (former judge Luca Palamara told reporters about the secrets of the judicial system in Italy and corruption in appointments to key positions - approx. InoSMI) they showed even the most incredulous what we have been saying for years: there is a real national emergency in justice right now. Of course, we do not want punitive reform in relation to the court, on the contrary, we want a reform that values the work of serious and conscientious judges, who until now have been hostages of organized and ideologically minded power groups. At the same time, the reform should return to citizens the very guarantees of liberal democracy. We continue to work on this in Parliament. The reform launched by the Government has positive aspects, but it can be significantly improved. In any case, it is important that citizens will finally be able to speak out on a topic that directly concerns them. I am sure that Italians will not miss the opportunity to express their beliefs.
— Last week, an event of the party "Forward, Italy" on the theme "Italy of the future" took place. How do you imagine Italy of the future? What contribution can Forward Italy make to this?
— Our event was a huge success. It showed that there is not only "Forward Italy", but also a huge enthusiasm, a desire to restart, as evidenced by the polls, according to which we are growing. We listened to the productive categories and guaranteed them that their requirements would be our requirements. "Forward, Italy" plays a crucial role, because we are the only consistent bearers of the ideas and values of liberalism, Christianity, Europeanism and guarantees of rights. We are the only political force that combines these principles and uses them in its program to restart Italy. The future of this country can be brilliant, such as Italy deserves, if it is a liberal future. We are working on it.
— At what stage is the formation of center-right now and what goals are being pursued in the near future?
— To return to the government when the next election will again have the opportunity to choose between the center-right and the center-left. All this will be carried out taking into account the good experience of the Draghi government. For this to happen, it is necessary that the liberal and Christian components of centrism, which we, the center-right, represent, be strong and decisive not only in terms of numbers, but also politics. After all, only with our ideas Italy can move forward and inspire confidence in Europe and the whole world.
— While Forward Italy is working with the League in the majority, the Brothers of Italy party is in opposition. How are relations with allies developing?
— We work very well in most of the Italian provinces and many important communes. This experience of proper management will become a model that we will transfer to the national level. Of course, I am sorry that Giorgiameloni refused to allow the ideas, programs, men and women of the Brothers of Italy to be represented in the government. Unlike us, she made such a choice. I respect this choice, and it won't stop us from coming back to work together. As for the League, we have different political identities and cultures, but we cooperate very well in the government and in parliament so that the work of the majority is represented by our ideas and programs.
